Transcript
Ben Fallon: Thanks for joining us on today's episode of Ask Paul Tripp. A teen reader of your book, New Morning Mercies for Teens, asked, “I was reading through the Q&A section at the back when I thought of a question of my own. ‘Is listening to secular music wrong?’ Not all of it swears or speaks about sex, and some have really positive messages. ‘Does listening to secular music stop us from being closer to God?’”
Paul Tripp: Well, like I usually do, I want to start with a helicopter view of this question and work down to more details. There are two things that you need to think about when you're thinking about how to interact with anything that's produced in this fallen world. And the first thing is that it's important to realize that we live in the middle of a spiritual war. From the time of the sin of Adam and Eve until the time where we're in the final kingdom, there is a great spiritual war taking place. Paul sort of summarizes that saying, “We don't wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities and powers.” And you awake, every day, to that war. That war is normal. It's not just weird moments of demons and deliverance, but it's every day. There really is a Satan who “prowls around like a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour.”
We know that sin is seductive. We know it's deceptive. We know it's attractive. What is evil in God's eyes doesn't always seem evil to us. Sometimes, wrong things present themselves as incredibly attractive. So, as long as sin is inside of us, we're susceptible to being attracted to things that are evil and dark and way beyond God's loving and wise boundaries for us. That's the first thing.
The second thing is, we believe in this thing called ‘common grace.’ And what common grace is, is that God's love for us means, in order to restrain evil and gift us with lives that are satisfying, safe, and beautiful, God causes people who don't know him to produce good things. We see that in law. We see that in music. We see that in art. We see that in medicine. We see that in technology. Incredible things that are produced by people, who don't know and love God, that benefit our lives, that keep us healthy, that cause us enjoyment. I mean, I always think when I go to a museum and I see stunning, beautiful artwork in gallery after gallery, that those are all God given gifts, and God gave them to people so that all of us would enjoy them. The Bible says “the sun shines on the just and the unjust,” that non-Christian gardeners can grow beautiful gardens for our enjoyment. So yes, there's a spiritual war, but God allows things, causes things, good things to be produced by people who don't know and love and serve him. So, there is music that's not written by a Christian or written to be overtly Christian that is beautiful and uplifting.
But one of the things I want to do in answering this question is I want to challenge that hard line, spiritual, secular dichotomy because the Bible teaches us that every human being is a worshiper. That means that everything is spiritual. The most unreligious, a-religious thing is actually spiritual because it is produced by a worshiper. In this way everyone is deeply spiritual and religious and everything has those undertones. So, there is a theology in every, every song that's been written. There's identity, there's meaning and purpose, there's quest for satisfaction. There's a system of right and wrong. There's a structure of relationships. There's hope for today and for the future. All those things are in everything that everybody produces.
So, it's not just, “Is it secular or spiritual?” It is, “Is it true?” Because everything that's produced encourages worship of some kind, describes life in some way. And so, the issue is not so much an absolute “Yes” or an absolute “No,” but wisdom and discernment. What system of truth is this piece of art, music promoting? What does it encourage me to think? What does it encourage me to desire? What does it say about who human beings are? What does it say about the purpose of life? So, I'm not just saying, “If it's not produced by a Christian, I'll never ever listen to it. If it's produced by a Christian, I will always listen to it.”
Listen, there are things produced by Christians that are not true, that don't encourage good things in you, that say things that are not true about God. So, you can't divide the world into ‘secular–not safe,’ and ‘Christian–safe,’ but you have to exercise discernment. Any piece of art that you encounter, we're talking about music here, you have to exercise discernment about “What is it encouraging you to believe? What is encouraging you to do? What does it say about the meaning of life? What does it say about human purpose? What does it say about God? What does it say about relationships? What does it say about how to make decisions? What does it say about government or whatever?” and use discernment. I just think that's so important.
So, is it wrong to listen to music that you would identify as secular? The answer is “No;” but you must not be naive about the world that you live in and the war that's going on, and the fact that everything in some way is theological and spiritual, and you must be willing to exercise discernment.
BF: So that question asks, “Does listening to secular music stop us from being closer to God?” So, let's ask the inverse, “Does listening to Christian music bring us closer to God?” And then Paul, for you personally, what is your split? How much worship music do you listen to compared to secular music? And if you do listen to secular music at all, who do you listen to?
PT: Well, my wife, Luella, is listening to what you would call worship music all the time and is always sending me things that she thinks would be uplifting or helpful , that she wants me to listen to, and I think that's very good. When I was very, very sick, one of my dear friends would send me great hymns sung by amazing choirs, and I was despondent and weak, and I would just listen to those things and weep. Not tears of sadness, but tears of joy remembering my Lord, and remembering his presence, and remembering his promises. So, I think it's incredibly helpful.
There are bands that I've listened to, I mean, I was raised on the Beatles, so that dates me. But I love U2, Radiohead, Arcade Fire. I could think of other bands, but even with those, I want to be discerning. And sometimes, Luella and I will be in a car, and we'll listen to a song, we'll say, “Well, that was a great song, but that ‘ain't’ true.” So, it's a matter of discernment. I think visual art and music are great gifts that God has given us. And I remember once sitting in the front row, because I was with some blind boys, and listening to the Chicago Philharmonic, and it was a piece that was entitled “God, The Most Awesome Word Ever Spoken.” And the hugeness of that music, you could really feel your chest rumbling, it was just mind-boggling. And there was something about how that music displayed God's splendor, so you could physically feel it, that was almost beyond words. It was just an amazing experience. And so, I love that God has invested those things with such power, and I think they are wonderful to participate in as long as you function with some discernment.
BF: Well, as soon as we stopped the recording, Paul forgot to mention that he listens to, in his quotes, “My favorite theologian, Bob Dylan.” So, we just wanted to give him his appropriate credit. Thanks again for listening to Ask Paul Tripp.
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