Transcript
Ben Fallon: Today's question comes from Janice who asks:
I know a young lady who has come out in the past year as being gay. She claims to be a strong Christian and loves Jesus very much, but she has come to the conclusion, after her own research, that homosexuality is okay in God's eyes, and I will quote for you one of her latest reasonings. “I learned that homosexuality wasn't even in the Bible until 1946 and bought myself a Bible from the 1800s as proof. I learned and am still learning that accepting my queerness was truly a reconciliation of my full self to Christ.”
So then Janice asks, “Is this even true? I've always understood that homosexuality is a sin, but the justification of many queer Christians today is this claim that it wasn't in the Bible originally. How do I confront this sister in love?”
Paul Tripp: Well, I want to say something as we start that I hope comes across as gracious as I mean it. I think this kind of question really speaks to the massive confusion that's out there in the Christian community and how powerfully we can be influenced by the surrounding world. It's not just that the church has influenced the world, the church is powerfully influenced by the culture, the morals, the values of the world around us, and that can create a lot of confusion. This means that you never come to your study of Scripture empty; you always bring a set of desires, a set of thoughts, a set of influences, and it's not just that Scripture shapes the way you think, you shape the way you read and understand Scripture. It's very important to understand that.
Having said that, I have to say very honestly, I hope, humbly, that I'm a bit mystified that this question is so prominent in Christian culture right now, particularly with people who say they're committed Christians, who say they're committed to the message of Scripture. So let me begin by talking about God's Law first. It's important to understand that God's Law doesn't contradict his love. In fact, God's Law is an expression of his love. God loves his children, and he wants them to thrive. And because he created us, he knows us, and because he created the world, he knows the world that we live in, and because he has a greater understanding of the fall than we will ever have, he understands the brokenness of the world that we're in, his Law provides for us really loving, wise, and protective guardrails for our living.
Second, it's important to understand that Jesus didn't come to end the Law, but to fulfill it. And he does that in two ways: as the perfectly righteous, obedient Son, and as the sacrificial Lamb. So you put those together, it means we no longer need to follow the ceremonial laws of the Old Testament, the sacrificial systems and what-not, because Jesus became the Passover Lamb for us. But the moral Law still stays in place. And so when you go to look for your ethics, your standard of right and wrong as a Christian, you don't just look to the New Testament, you look to the Old Testament as well. And there are four passages that speak very clearly to the question that is being asked. And I want to say this because it's important to say, we have to handle these passages believing that every passage is inspired by God, recorded and preserved by him for our good, and that means everything is profitable for us. So, let me read four passages for you. I'm just going to read these without comment first.
First is Leviticus 18:22:
You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination.”
Leviticus 20:13:
If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they surely shall be put to death; their blood is upon them.
Romans 1:26-27:
For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; and men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.
1 Corinthians 6:9-10:
Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.
Now, here's how you need to understand how Scripture works. If we only had one passage that prohibited homosexuality, it would be enough to settle this issue biblically. But we have four that speak to it directly, plus a collection of marriage passages that make it very clear where and with whom sexual relationships should take place. These passes are strong and clear about God's will for our sexual lives. A sexual relationship between, a man and a man, and a woman and a woman, is outside of God's loving and authoritative boundaries. Does that mean we should treat this sin as the biggest, baddest sin of all; the one that we give the greatest attention to than others?
Clearly not! Because according to Paul, in the 1 Corinthians passage, homosexuality is listed along with something like greed. You could probably argue that in human history, way more damage has been done by the sin of greed than it is by the sin of homosexuality. So we just need to have these things in proper biblical balance. Some sins have greater sociological implications than others, but I think we have to be careful of the way that we evaluate sin. Every sin is like every other sin in that it's a sin for which Christ died and for which he extends his forgiving and transforming grace.
Now, how would I have a conversation with a person who confesses to be a Christian but is living a gay lifestyle? Well, let me go back. There is literally no evidence promoted by any serious biblical scholar that this prohibition of gay sexuality was inserted quickly in there after World War II–there just isn't any. And again, no serious biblical scholar is proposing that.
Well, here's how I would have the conversation. First of all, I want to be committed that everything I do and say, in this conversation, is a reflection of the boundless love and the patient grace of my Savior. And I want to make sure that this conversation is rooted in the beautiful story of the gospel of the grace of Jesus, the grace that not only forgives; it empowers and transforms.
Now, before I speak, I want to listen. I want to understand the story of this person, how they've arrived to where they've arrived, how they understand what Scripture teaches, because much of my response will be shaped as an interaction with and a response to the superstructure of thought and interpretation that they've brought to this issue. I want to also, as I've said already, I want this person to understand the loving and protecting nature of God's Law. And here's one of the ways that I would talk about this. If God is perfectly holy in every way and all of the time, then it's absolutely impossible for him to call me to do something or to live in a way that is harmful for me. “All of God's ways are right and true,” it says in the Psalms. Everything he calls me to is what is holy, right, and best. Now, that doesn't mean they aren't costly. That doesn't mean they aren't heartbreaking to me. That doesn't mean it won't create massive change in the way I live, and lots of sacrifice, and maybe even the breaking of some relationships. But they're good for me, and they're right for me, and they're best for me. And those sacrifices will produce a harvest of good fruit in my life.
I would also want the person to be very careful to understand the danger of building your moral code on personal desire. There's a way in which we all do that. We all find a way of minimizing what is the sin and danger of something that we really want in our lives. Maybe that's just overeating. Maybe that's addicted to too much television. Maybe that's not being really honest on my taxes. We do things that are driven more by desire than by God's holy, right, good law. And so I want the person to understand that that's always dangerous and never takes you anywhere good.
And then I would want to emphasize the true and satisfying freedom that is always found on the other side of surrender to God. I want to tell a bit of a story. I was working in a warehouse after seminary where I stood at a packing table, and I packed boxes of CB radios to be shipped out. And there were eight of us at that table, and there was a guy right across from me who was a serial adulterer, and he prided himself in his freedom. But, as I listened to him talk, he was always looking over his shoulder; he always had to remember what story he told when and to whom. At times he would duck behind buildings or hide behind his car because he was always afraid of being caught. He was not only unfaithful to his wife, he was also unfaithful to whatever girlfriend he had at the moment. And one day I said to him, “You know, you think you're free, and you look at me like I'm enslaved, but I think the opposite is true. I never have to look over my shoulder. I never duck behind the side of a building. I never hide behind my car. I never have to remember what story I told because I believe God's way is the best way and I'm free; you're enslaved.” So, surrender is the doorway to freedom; it's not the opposite. Independence and “do whatever I want” is not the doorway to freedom. And sin, although it promises us freedom, actually enslaves us and brings trouble on us; and surrender to God, which looks like slavery and actually is a service to him, actually sets us free.
So those are some of the initial thoughts. But so much of my conversation would be a reaction to how this person had arrived at what they had arrived at and how they are interpreting these very clear passages of scripture.
BF: Now, Paul, that might be easier said than done. If the person who comes out to you as gay or queer is relatively distant from you relationally. But what if it's your own kid? We've had a few questions from folks recently whose adult children specifically have come out as gay to their parents. So how do parents respond in love?
PT: So, I will respond to this with two stories, one that my friend told to me and one out of my experience. There was a group in Philadelphia for years called something like “Philadelphia Family Council.” It was a Christian group trying to promote Christian ethics and strong family and those kinds of things. And the leader of that group was a friend of mine who was asked to do a debate with the leader of a group called “ACT UP.” “ACT UP” was the most aggressive pro-gay group in that period of time. Somewhere in the debate, the guy from “ACT UP” pointed to the man who represents the more conservative Christian side and said, “Okay, what would you do if your daughter came home and announced that she was gay, and she was committed to that lifestyle, and she hated what you stood for?” He said, “I'd get up, I would walk across the room, I would throw my arms around my daughter and say, ‘I have loved you since before you were born, I love you now, I will love you till I die! There's nothing that ever could break that bond of love I have for you! You know what I think about your lifestyle, but I love you!’”
Second story, I had parents come to me for counseling and told me that their twenty-four-year-old son had announced that he was gay, that he hated them and hated everything that they stood for, and he wanted to cut them out of his life–he didn't want anything to do with them.” They said, “Well, what do we do?” I said, “First of all, don't let your son set the agenda for your relationship. Love your son. Send him birthday cards, invite him to family events.” So they did this for four years. They had no idea how he was responding. He had no contact with them whatsoever; except one day he knocked on their door, and he did that because he didn't feel welcome anymore. The father came to door, didn't know who it was. There was his son and he rather tearfully said, “I’ve spent a lot of time over the last four years hating you, but I'm here because if somebody would ask me, ‘Who are two people that love me and love me no matter what,’ I would have had to say, ‘My mom and dad.’ And he said, ‘Can I come home?’”
Now, it's not always going to turn out that way, but I have no power whatsoever to change the heart of my child. If I had that power, Jesus’, life, death, resurrection and ascension wouldn't have been necessary. But I do have the ability to reflect two things. It's very easy when a child is announcing a commitment to a gay lifestyle to only reflect God's Law. It's a big temptation, and you should reflect God's Law, but it's biblically wrong not to also reflect God's love. The whole story of the Bible is how God is harnessing the forces of nature and controlling the events of human history, so at a certain time, his Son comes to rescue us, forgive us, reconcile us and transform us. It's a massive story of divine love. So I've got to be very careful that I do both of those. And I remember that God's love doesn't contradict his Law, and his Law doesn't contradict his love.
I find parents are so repulsed by this issue, they break relationship with their children, they cut them off out of their house; and what have you done? You have just sent your children to the world. The only thing you have with an adult child, of influence, is your relationship with them. And you can have that relationship without either a compromise of God's Law or a watering down of his love. So I want to be committed to both of those. And remember that I can't change my child's heart, that anger doesn't produce the righteousness of God, threat doesn't alter the content of a person's heart, and so, I want that relationship because that's my only means of exercising continual influence with the hope that God will use that in this child's life.
BF: Well I think the best recommended resource that we have, after that second question at least, is a conference called “Parenting Never Ends.” Paul spends the last session of this event discussing how to love and relate to your adult children after they leave the home. That's available completely for free at parentingneverends.com.
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