Transcript

00:01 Paul Tripp: Hey, Shelby.

00:01 Shelby Abbott: Hey, Paul.

00:02 Paul: This is part 4 of "Faith".

00:04 Shelby: Part 4 of "Faith". Do you think we'll end today?

00:08 Paul: Yes, and..

00:08 Shelby: Okay, good.

00:09 Paul: I think it's been... for me, it's been a really rich, fun conversation. We use, often, biblical language without really clear definition, without depth of understanding and faith is one of those words you get. It's getting thrown around at.

00:33 One of the terms that I sometimes struggle with is "he's a person of faith" and sometimes, it's used more to be congratulatory of the person than... faith is not self-congratulatory and, in fact, faith is rooted in this combination of a mission of utter weakness and inability, and the wisdom, strength, glory of God that's been imparted.

01:14 And so, it's really worthwhile talking about what this thing called faith is and we've had a really great back and forth just walking through Hebrews 11, and understanding what faith in God is, what biblical faith is.

01:39 And one of the points I've tried to make is that you can read through Hebrews 11, you get [an] early definition of faith and it seemed like there's just random examples of what faith is; and I've been proposing that I really think that this passage is way more intentional than that.

01:58 It's hitting at these really significant elements of what faith is and how it operates; and so, what I want to do today is I want to take a little bit of a detour and then, get back to our conversation from Hebrews 11.

02:20 And the detours I've been thinking a lot of something that is sort of an old school way of talking about faith; but I think, for me, it's been really helpful and it's to talk about faith and imagination. Now, most human beings — and I would say most Christians, when they hear the word imagination, they think children's literature.

02:52 Shelby: Sure, or children in general.

02:54 Paul: Or fantasy. But I would argue that one of the capacities that God has given human beings that is actually important for knowing Him and trusting Him is imagination. We're separate from the rest of creation because of our ability to imagine and most people think that the primary function of imagination is to conjure up what's unreal.

03:38 Shelby: Sure, I think that would be a normal definition if you asked someone.

03:41 Paul: But actually, the core function of imagination is to be able to see what is real but unseen.

03:52 Shelby: Okay, what do you mean by that?

03:53 Paul: I mean everything you believe. You can't taste it. You can't touch it. You can't see it. You've never seen God and yet, you're able to see God because of imagination. And all this means is that the most important vision system of a human being is not your physical lives.

04:24 You can be physically blind and that is a huge deficit, but you can live quite well. But you can't be spiritually blind and live well; and what sin does is blunts our imagination. So you read God's word, you don't understand it and you are restricted then, to only rest in things that are physically touchable, hearable, quantifiable. That's not a life of faith.

05:01 Shelby: Right, yes, it's not actually like a good life either.

05:04 Paul: No, it's not and so, if the primary focus of faith is a God you can't see and you can't hear, you can't touch, then you've got to have some capacity to embrace Him and that's imagination.

05:32 Shelby: It's utilizing your own imagination in order to figure out how to even embrace God.

05:37 Paul: Yes, it's your ability to actually see what is unseen but is real. We believe that all these unseen realities are as real as the clothes we have on as the chair we're sitting in. They're absolutely real, but they're unseen.

06:04 Shelby: Okay, so a lot of people would... if you're talking with someone who maybe is struggling with even believing in God, they would argue for the science of something. And I know you and I've talked about this a little bit.

06:16 Like, scientifically, in a lab, you can't prove a lot of different things and you can't prove God per se through the elements of science. But if that's the only thing that we depend on in order to figure out who we are as human beings, we're actually less than human because we don't have imagination. Similar to what you're saying?

06:35 Paul: Yes, and example, if you stand in front of an apple tree that doesn't have apples on it right now, you are seeing its roots, but you don't see them. You are seeing apples to come but you don't see them. That's all imagination. We use it all the time.

06:59 And when your wife is pregnant, you are seeing that baby in the womb and you're seeing its development with all kinds of confidence. That's imagination. You don't actually see it because it's not physically visible to you. So this is something quite regular that we're using all the time.

07:21 Shelby: Yes. That's not language that I would normally go to immediately and in fact, you and I were talking about this a little bit before we started recording this morning that I don't think I've ever — as far as I can remember, at least — ever heard someone use faith and imagination as interchangeable things.

07:42 Paul: See, okay, it's what the promises of God are meant to stimulate. When God promises you an eternity and He gives you words to describe it, you are envisioning that. It's your vision of that that propels you to keep persevering. That's imagination.

08:03 When the Old Testament promises, the coming and the sacrifice of the Son, it's stimulating your imagination to see that coming and to have hope in this thing that you cannot see physically, but you absolutely see.

08:20 Shelby: Is that similar to how, I guess, The Revelation unpacks eternity? It gives you clues and representations of what things will be like but sometimes, the language is used intentionally to inspire imagination in some way?

08:39 Paul: Well, yes, absolutely. The apocalyptic visions of Revelation are meant to stimulate your imagination and so, part of faith is to see what is real, but I can't physically see. When God makes promises to us, we're asked to look forward and grasp the reality of something that's not yet in our hands. And you're doing that all the time when you're making all kinds of visual pictures in your mind of stuff around you all the time that you can't actually see.

09:35 Shelby: Yes, okay, as you're fleshing this out, it's starting to make a lot more sense. I remember somebody one time said that you can't imagine a new color. It's not possible, I think, for the human brain to figure out what a new color is.

09:53 All you're able to do is combine what you already know into new images in your brain. Or if you want to paint something new, you combine red and blue, and it makes purple. But to imagine a different color is impossible for the human brain to do.

10:11 So imagination, in a sense, is combining certain things in order to create new things. So like a unicorn or something like that, that a child would think about is a combination of a horse with a horn on its head. That doesn't exist in the real world, but you use your imagination by combining normal things and to make them something new.

10:31 Paul: But see the difference between, that is conjuring up what's unreal.

10:38 Shelby: Yes, I understand that, but someone might say you're using your imagination in order to make that happen.

10:44 Paul: Yes, you know, one of the one of the ways you see imagination is let's say you read Harry Potter. You have painted all of those characters in your mind. You get to the movie and you're disappointed because that's not what you saw.

11:05 Shelby: Yes, and I think anybody who's read a book and then, watched the movie afterward has been somewhat disappointed. Okay.

11:11 Paul: So that capacity was given to us because we're created for a God-ward life.

11:22 Shelby: It's fascinating. Okay.

11:23 Paul: And so, we have to be able to see things that we can't actually see in order to live this life of faith. So I see eternity. I haven't actually seen it, but there's a vision that propels me of this thing that's real but unseen. I see Jesus sitting on the throne next to the Father. Have I ever seen that? No, but that is a very important, compelling vision that organizes my life.

12:06 Shelby: Yes, super helpful.

12:09 Paul: And I see the final victory. I see the marriage supper of the Lamb and the final feast. I see myself dressed in robes of white. That's a very important part of my faith. Imagine if you didn't have that ability, that ability to see those things.

12:37 You know you do the same thing when you read those passages. There are pictures in your brain. That's a very important part of faith that we've been given this capacity and it's the development of that is really important.

12:53 Like sometimes, you'll describe something to a child and they don't have that ability developed yet, so you describe it's going to be a several hour trip and we'll stop along the way, and five minutes in the car, your child says, "Are we are we there yet?"

13:14 Shelby: Right, yes. We've been there.

13:16 Paul: Now, when you describe that, you have the whole vision. You have the vision of rest stops and you have the vision of getting out of the car and walking around. You're seeing all that, but they're not.

13:27 Shelby: Yes, okay. That's really helpful, the way that you've fleshed it out and unpacked it; and the difference between what I was saying before of combining different things to create something unreal.

13:38 And as you were saying that, too, I was thinking about how humans uniquely have that ability in ways that other living creatures don't, which I think you said at the beginning of this. So I'm thinking about a dog doesn't have the ability to imagine anything other than what they physically see or what they maybe even remember from before.

13:57 They can't think ahead. They can't artistically create something in their mind. They can't visualize something that they read because they can't read, but you understand what I'm saying, right? It makes human beings even more unique than maybe we initially think about when we think about the difference between human beings and other living creatures.

14:22 Paul: Yes, and the Bible is full of things that are meant to stimulate our seeing, our imagination, so we can embrace all of the activity of God and the promises of faith. And, you know, I think all the time of Jesus sitting next to the right hand of the Father and He's ruling over all things for the sake of the church.

14:54 What a beautiful, life-shaping, compelling vision. Imagine not having that. Imagine not just being black. That's part of the tragedy of spiritual blindness and you could argue that grace unlocks your imagination so you can see those; and then all of a sudden, scripture comes to life for you. And, you know, one of my prayers for me is, "Lord, just help me to see. Help me to see Your glory in ways I'm not seeing it.

15:41 Now obviously, when I pray that prayer, I'm not talking about my physical eyes. I'm talking about the eyes of my heart. I'm talking about imagination and you know, one of the things that imagination does, it's what helps you to see the glory of God behind His creation.

16:11 When you can have spiritual blindness and look at the flower and think, "Oh, what a great flower." I mean, I look at a rose garden and I see God because that's what those things are meant to do. They're meant to point us to something that we can't physically see, but is real.

16:37 Shelby: Yes, and you even mentioned scripture before. I think depending on when someone becomes a follower of Jesus, when God transforms their life and they're born again, if you could remember before that.

16:52 I can actually remember reading my Bible before I was a believer. I became a Christian at 19 and so, I have several years of being able to recall before I knew Jesus; and I do remember that moment when I was able to read scripture and like you said, grace unlocked things in ways that I... I'd read so many things in scripture before and then, when I read them after God saved me, it was a totally different experience.

17:21 It was totally different and I was like, "I know these words. I'd even memorize some scripture and all of a sudden, it was different. It was bubbling with energy and excitement in ways that I'd never seen before.

17:38 And I remember I was discipling this one guy on a college campus and he had just become a believer. I was working with him and we were talking about the Bible, and I said, "How are things going for you," and he goes, "It's crazy. It's almost like," and he held his Bible up and he goes, "It's almost like this book is alive." And I was like, "Exactly, it is. It's alive." You just weren't able to see it before and now, you can. It's so exciting.

18:03 Paul: Yes, absolutely. So imagination, its connection to faith is the ability to see what is real but is unseen, and grace unlocks that for us because primary reason is if our whole life is rooted in and trust in a God who is a Spirit, then we need the capacity to envision Him, envision His promises, and that's imagination.

18:36 Shelby: Yes, really helpful. Not where I thought we were going to go with the part 4 of "Faith". When you told me we're going to talk about imagination, I was like, I am confused, but I trust you, so thank you for unpacking that.

18:50 Paul: Well, it's not original with me, that's for sure.

18:55 Shelby: Yes, but highlighting these kinds of things as we dive in part 4 of "Faith" after hours of talking about this, this is super helpful to see it from a different angle.

19:04 Paul: Yes, so I want to get back to Hebrews. We're going to look at verse 20-22 and I'll let you read those.

19:24 Shelby: Just those three verses? Okay. Hebrews 11:20-22. ²⁰By faith Isaac invoked future blessings on Jacob and Esau. ²¹By faith Jacob, when dying, blessed each of the sons of Joseph, bowing in worship over the head of his staff. ²²By faith Joseph, at the end of his life, made mention of the exodus of the Israelites and gave directions concerning his bones. Super helpful that you decided to say these aren't just random examples. This is purposeful stuff that's in here in Hebrews 11. These are not just like...

20:00 Paul: Yes, so way when it says Isaac invoked future blessings on Jacob and Esau, and Jacob blessed each of the sons of Joseph, what does it does it mean "invoking future blessings"?

20:27 Shelby: It seems that might be connected to imagination?

20:30 Paul: Well, sure it is, but we would say he's passing down to them God's covenant promises. I mean, Isaac has no ability to bless anybody, but God does and so, God put His blessing on Isaac and Isaac is passing that blessing down to his sons.

20:58 And what's important to me about that being mentioned in Hebrews is that faith is rooted in God's promises. It's not rooted in my track record. It's not rooted in my righteousness. It's not rooted in my wisdom. It's not even rooted in all the good things I already have.

21:29 It's rooted in God's promises and they are thousands. "I will never leave you or forsake you." That, "I've gone to prepare a place for you." That, "My strength is made perfect in your weaknesses." All these promises that are the roots of what faith is.

21:53 You could say that the arms of faith are always holding on to the promises of God and that defines the life of faith. Let's say I get up in the morning, I don't feel great and I am tempted to put load onto my shoulders, all the problems of life, all my cares and concerns; but what faith grabs a hold of in the midst of those concerns or weaknesses are the promises of God.

22:32 I'm very aware in 54 years of marriage how Luella and I, we seldom go through a day without encouraging one another with the promises of God. Luella will be concerned about our children and I'll talk about his love. I said we couldn't possibly love our children more than God does.

23:04 And so, it makes sense that Hebrews 11 is saying, "Look how central the promises of God are to a life of faith," and God is a covenant-making God, He's a covenant-keeping God. Galatians says that those who are in Christ are children of Abraham and the heirs of the promises to Abraham.

23:39 So we're in that same line. Those covenant blessings through the son of Abraham, Jesus, have now been passed down to us. Those promises belong to us. So the question of faith is where am I forgetting the promises of God, where am I refusing to believe in the promises of God, where am I not motivated by the promises of God, am I really one whose life is characterized by every day grabbing a hold of the promises of God with both hands?

24:19 Shelby: Yes. A lot of people will say, "Okay, I'm not doing that well. I'm not grabbing on to those promises that you're talking about now and I'm struggling with my faith." Inevitably, I think the natural reaction to that is I need to have more faith in God. I need to have more faith in the promises of God. I need to bolster my faith in ways that it's more quantifiable. Can you respond to that if someone were to say that to you?

24:51 Paul: Well, if you could do that, grace wouldn't be necessary. If I could just gin up faith, I wouldn't need God in my life. The minute you started asking the question, I was giving the answer.

25:07 Shelby: Yes, yes, I know. I saw your face.

25:09 Paul: Because I'm thinking that's me and what I pray is right there in the gospels. "Lord, I believe. Help my unbelief." It's, "Lord, I was full of anxiety today because I didn't hold on to Your promises and I was confronted with my weakness. I was confronted with things that are out of my control, and I gave way to fear."

25:45 That's what you do with it because faith is the gift of God and He delights in His children coming to Him and saying, "I want to trust You more and I see places where I don't." And think of the greatest concern in your life, not just you, Shelby, but the people who are listening or watching this.

26:16 What is the thing, the greatest concern in your life, the place where you feel the least able to affect change? Are you trusting God's promises there or do you pick that thing up day after day after day and let it just beat the snuff out of you? And sometimes, our response when we don't see the promises coming to be is to give up on the promises.

26:54 Shelby: Yes, that's happened plenty of times with numbers of people.

26:58 Paul: And that's just where I need to hold on tighter and the Bible gives examples. One of the key examples is of Abraham — we talked about this last time — who staked his whole life on one single promise of God, that he would have a son and that son being Isaac. He waited 75 years. God wants to know what was going on. Scripture gets a little gynecological.

27:35 Shelby: There's a word that I never thought you would say during a faith podcast.

27:39 Paul: Well, because it tells us about Sarah's womb.

27:42 Shelby: Yes, I understand what you mean. I just never thought you'd use the word gynecological.

27:51 Paul: Because 75-year-old women don't give birth and the Bible says their womb is dead. Now, what scripture tells us is that during that wait, Abraham grew strong in faith and became more and more convinced that the One who made the promise was faithful.

28:23 Now, that tells you that Abraham wasn't letting go. He was holding more tightly onto that promise and developed a deeper belief that God had the ability to do what He promised; and that one of the things you learn from that passage is that waiting in faith isn't just about what you get at the end of the way. It's about what you become as you're waiting.

28:57 Abraham became a different man. We know he panicked early and did something he shouldn't have done with his servant girl, and we're still living with that history. But his holding on to promises of God changed him and he became a different man, more persuaded that what God said He could do, He would do.

29:29 Shelby: Yes, this is very, very helpful because I actually just had a friend text me and ask... this person's in their mid to late 30s and they want to be married, and they're not dating anyone and asking when does that kind of faith run out, so to speak or is it wrong to keep asking for the same thing that you never really get? Now, this person is delightful, loves Jesus, walks with the Lord, trusting Him to provide, wants to be married. That's a good question to ask. It's a real question that she's going through all the time.

30:18 Paul: So I think that's a great example, but maybe not the way you meant it because one of the things you have to do to live a life of faith that doesn't make you absolutely insane is know what God has promised you and what He hasn't.

30:44 You can't stake your identity on things that God hasn't promised you because He hasn't promised you those things. So the list is endless. God hasn't promised us that we'll have a good marriage or have marriage. He hasn't.

31:06 Shelby: He hasn't promised that you and I would be healed of our physical issues.

31:12 Paul: And whether that's food, housing, (got to be very careful) children. You have to be very careful that you're holding on to, not your desire for what your life would be like, but God's promises. Faith is not filling the blank sheet with all the things that I would think would make my life good and asking God to sign the bottom. Faith is a sheet already written out by God and He signed the bottom. That's what faith is.

31:58 Shelby: Yes, that's a helpful distinction.

31:59 Paul: And so, I would lovingly help that person to understand that maybe you're staking your happiness on something that God hasn't promised you.

32:15 Shelby: Yes, and I've definitely done that with my pain, with my physical chronic issues. "Lord, why would you want this for me? This is miserable and awful and a slog, and it brings out the worst in me. Take this away, take this away, take this away, take this away."

32:33 And after years of it not being taken away, I'm wrestling with that question of, "Okay, is this the thorn that will not go away?" Where am I putting my faith? Am I putting my faith in an outcome, like what you said, let me write all this and then, have God sign the bottom.

32:51 Or am I putting my faith in a Person who I trust deeply with every aspect of my life, who loves me and cares about me and is sovereign over all things? Maybe I can't see the angles the way that He does, but I'm going to put my trust in Him, as opposed to this thing that I want.

33:08 Paul: It's important to make another distinction here. It's not wrong to ask God for good things He hasn't promised because He's kind and generous and He often gives us those things. So if you're single and want to be married, it's not wrong to pray that God would send you a good man or a good woman your way.

33:41 What's wrong is to stake your happiness on that because then, that thing becomes a God-replacement. Idolatry is not just a desire for bad things. Here's the definition of idolatry. A good thing becomes a bad thing when it becomes a ruling thing.

34:08 So often our idols, the reason they get us is because they're not evil things, but I've now placed my identity, my meaning, and purpose, my inner sense of wellbeing in something other than God and it's even more heinous because I'm asking Him to deliver what has replaced Him.

34:39 Shelby: Yes, yes, you're asking Him to give you a God-replacement, which is insane when you think about it.

34:45 Paul: Yes, just deliver my idols to me and I'll be happy. So it's really, really important. This brings us up in this little vignette that we're staking our identity on things that God has promised us. All those things are a reflection of His faithfulness and His holiness and His wisdom and His generosity; and I mean, all His character is revealed in His promises.

35:16 So I want to make sure that what I'm standing on is His promises, not my desires and now, I'm now frustrated and struggling with my ability to trust God because He hasn't delivered something that I desire, but that He hasn't promised us. God's not unfaithful because He hasn't delivered your desires.

35:45 Shelby: That's really good and I think that really addresses at the heart what a lot of people wrestle with on a day to day basis when it comes to how they believe their life is supposed to go, how they think God is supposed to provide for them the desires that they have internally, especially, when the culture is constantly telling them what's happening on the inside is the true you.

36:09 If that conflicts with scripture, people will go, "I would rather believe what's going on inside of me than what the scripture says." We've seen that play out in a number of different ways in our culture. So that's really, really helpful to understand that if you're staking your faith on something that God has not promised to you specifically, you are in a lot of danger, a lot of danger of misdescribing character qualities of God and actually throwing your life completely off track because then, you'll start to believe that God is not good or that He's evil or that He wants to purposely toy with you or manipulate you or whatever.

36:56 I know plenty of people who have been walking with God, they don't get what they want after praying for it for a long time and then, they go, "Well, God must not be good." Maybe they wouldn't articulate it that way, but they certainly live their life as if that's true.

37:09 Paul: I had a theology professor who said something that I thought was provocative, but tremendously helpful. He said, "If you're a believer and you're struggling with God's faithfulness, perhaps what you're struggling actually with is your unfaithfulness," because you're either struggling because you've given up on the promises of God or you've wandered away from the promises of God and you're ruled by your desires, and you're upset that God's not delivering them.

37:46 In those situations, who has been unfaithful? Not God. God's doing exactly what He promised to do, delivering everything He promised to deliver me. I'm wandering away. It's actually my unfaithfulness that's the issue and that's hard to accept, but it's so helpful.

38:14 Shelby: Yes, it really flips the script to help you recognize that the problem is not God. The problem is us or our perspective on who God is and our inability to understand the way He's working, our un-ability to understand scripture.

38:32 And like you say, many, many times, we get confused by certain things in here and then, we just move on or we kind of furrow our brow and go, "Oh, this doesn't make any sense," but actually, it's not something that we should move on to. It's an invitation to go deeper to discover more about the character of God.

38:47 So maybe, a thing that you're struggling with, if you're wrestling with faith, perhaps it's an invitation for God to say, "Come in more. I want to be in deeper relationship with you," because life is not, as you said, about these outcomes.

39:00 Where's the light at the end of the tunnel? What do I have to go through in order to get that thing? God wants to work with you in that whole process and draw you in closer to be in relationship with you.

39:10 And maybe when you get to that thing, you won't even care that much because you're just more of like what we talked about with Abraham, you're more of a person of faith. You're stronger than you were before because you went through the bad thing, the difficult thing, the absent thing.

39:25 Paul: So here's the wandering away dynamic. I think this is a worthwhile discussion. Desire very quickly morphs into need. People desire something for a long time quit using desire language. Desire is "I wish". It morphs into need. "I just need a better job." Need is "I must".

40:04 Need morphs into demand. "You must." Demand sets expectation. "If you love me, why wouldn't you?" And expectation leads to disappointment. "You didn't." There's the struggle and I've walked that road.

40:38 I think that's the road often that deconstructors walk. Desire morphs into need. Need morphs into demand. Demand sets expectation because it seems right. "If this is so vital, that if you love me, you deliver it." Expectation then leads to disappointment and then, I'm now struggling with the goodness of God.

41:11 Well, that road is me wandering. It's not God wandering away from what He's promised and what I love about this passage we're looking at is just the surety of these guys. I mean, Isaac was persuaded of God's promises.

41:34 That's why it was the best thing to pass down to his sons and that should be us, that what we're most confident in and what has engaged our hearts most is not what we wish, but what God has promised us and that's a hard battle of faith.

42:01 Shelby: Yes. This reminds me a little bit, too, of... I mean, you and I have talked about deconstruction quite a bit and we've both had people in our lives who have walked away; and the questions that they ask and sometimes, I've been like, "I don't even know how to respond to that."

42:17 You've helped me through a lot of that with people who have been close to me, who have deconstructed, but you answered a question on, I believe, it was an Ask Paul Tripp segment that you did. We'll do a little crossover.

42:30 Paul: Uh-oh, here it comes.

42:35 Shelby: But you were asked a question about a loved one who's older, wrestling with dementia and losing their faith. I think maybe that was the terminology that was used, "losing their faith," and you answered the question so, so well because it was helpful to not only think about who God is, but who we are in response to Him.

43:00 And so, you said something... well, I don't want to re-state it for you, but do you remember how you responded to that question? If someone is losing their faith as they're getting older and they are, not only are wrestling with memory and stuff like that, but they're losing themselves. They're losing the aspects of who they are. Some might say they're walking away from their faith because their mind is not what it used to be. They can't have faith the way they used to be.

43:32 Paul: I love what Paul says is that God's grace is sufficient. His strength is made perfect in our weakness, that I would never describe dementia as a person losing their faith. They are losing their capacity to conceptualize anything. Well, their walk with God was never rooted in their ability in the first place. Never. If that were the game, we're all cooked and so, I can't lose what God did.

44:33 Shelby: Yes, what you never gained in the first place.

44:35 Paul: Yes, God did it and so, I think it's really tough to be around those people. I think it's hard to understand what's going on inside of them, but God knows. God knows His own and there will be a day when that sheep will hear His voice and will come.

45:01 Shelby: Yes, it's really beautiful and you answered it a little bit differently than you did in the Ask Paul Tripp segment, but it's very along the similar lines. I think that really, the reason I brought it up is because I think it's helpful to illustrate where we might be asking some serious questions about who we are in relation to God, what faith has to do with all of this and when we struggle — not if, but when we struggle — where is God in the midst of that struggle and we think so much depends on us.

45:33 Paul: So let's talk about that a bit. We don't want to get away from the fact that faith is a command. We are commanded to believe, but when something like dementia is an issue, then the question is why is this person not believing? Well, in this case, it's not rebellion.

46:06 Shelby: Right, it's not sin, per se.

46:08 Paul: Yes, it's not unfaithfulness to promises you made to God or a refusal to hang on to His promises anymore. It's a mental inability to do those things and there's no judgment in God for that because of His mercy.

46:36 To me, it's just beautiful that that person will struggle, but there will be a day when that person doesn't struggle and that person with dementia will be before the throne with multitudes of every place in the globe, every period of history, every language, singing songs of victory with complete rationality.

47:09 Shelby: And that's just so beautiful to remind ourselves, too, about and flip that and go, "This is us as well." We all have moments of spiritual dementia. We all are grace amnesiacs, as you like to say and it doesn't depend on us.

47:27 It's not how much faith we have. It's about who our faith is in and recognizing that God knows His own. He extends grace to us. We are commanded to have faith and not sin, but if there are certain things outside of our ability to control, like our cognitive functions or, you know, something like dementia, that person's not sinning and God is near.

47:56 I think that's how you ended the Ask Paul Tripp question. God is near. So even when you're wrestling with your faith, God is near. I think that's just so important to remind ourselves that God is not far away. He's near.

48:12 Paul: Yes, and the Psalms is good about that because it really presents a God is not disgusted by the weak and broken-hearted, but comes near to them. It's so beautiful and God, who has known no weakness, known no brokenness, known no inability of any kind, comes near to those who suffer from all of those things. It's beautiful.

48:45 So faith rooted in God's promises. Make sure that your expectations flow out of God's promises, not out of your desires for your life. And for those things that God has promised, we don't know what He will do.

49:09 His will is secret, but we know what He will be for us and I think it's really important in the places where you long for something that God has promised to ask yourself the question, what is God giving me in the midst of this? What is He for me in the midst of this?

49:38 Shelby: Yes, ever present help in trouble.

49:40 Paul: Because there are times when those things just pass and you'll never, never get what... it's not evil to desire marriage. I know older women who are probably never going to get married, who at a point in their life would have loved to be married.

50:12 Just make sure that it's right to pray for those things. It's right to ask God for those things. It's very spiritually dangerous to root your identity and meaning and purpose and your inner sense of wellbeing and contentment in those things if God hasn't promised them.

50:34 Shelby: Yes, really, really, good. Thanks.

50:37 Paul: Well, I love this next section. Why don't you read 23-31?

50:48 Shelby: Okay. ²³By faith Moses, when he was born, was hidden for three months by his parents, because they saw that the child was beautiful, and they were not afraid of the king's edict. ²⁴By faith Moses, when he was grown up, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter, ²⁵choosing rather to be mistreated with the people of God than to enjoy the fleeting pleasures of sin. ²⁶He considered the reproach of Christ greater wealth than the treasures of Egypt, for he was looking to the reward.

51:19 That's an interesting passage that we should talk about. ²⁷By faith he left Egypt, not being afraid of the anger of the king, for he endured as seeing Him who is invisible. ²⁸By faith he kept the Passover and sprinkled the blood, so that the Destroyer of the firstborn might not touch them.

51:39 ²⁹By faith the people crossed the Red Sea as on dry land, but the Egyptians, when they attempted to do the same, were drowned. ³⁰By faith the walls of Jericho fell down after they had been encircled for seven days. ³¹By faith Rahab the prostitute did not perish with those who were disobedient, because she had given a friendly welcome to the spies. There's a lot there.

52:04 Paul: Yes, so what this really puts front and center is the connection between faith and values; and before we have that discussion, it's really important to see that what we have a picture here in the life of Moses and children of Israel, and the freedom from Egypt and the defeat of the Egyptians is just the power and glory of God.

52:50 ²³By faith Moses, when he was born, was hidden for three months by his parents, because they saw that the child was beautiful, and they were not afraid of the king's edict. There is God all over that. I mean, what do you think is going to happen if you put your baby in a basket in the Nile? Is it an accident that Pharaoh's daughter discovers the baby...

53:21 Shelby: Just happens to be there.

53:22 Paul: And it just so happens that near is Moses' sister who says, "I know somebody who will be a good midwife." I mean, you just see God orchestrating these things. The whole delivery from Egypt, the unleashing of God's power in the plagues and then, the final Passover, the power of God being unleashed for His people.

53:48 I just did a Bible study on that moment when Israel is on a short trip to the Promised Land and God reckoned these recent slaves would be just full of fear if they had to face that Philistine army; and so, He turns them back and camps in front of the Red Sea.

54:12 It seems like a disaster, but all that is God orchestrated so that Israel would see His glory and know that He would defeat armies on their behalf. In that moment when Moses puts his rod over the water and that water parts and the walls just stay there, and wind comes and dries the ground so they can go across it.

54:46 Shelby: Incredible

54:47 Paul: Oh, one of the funny moments — because the Bible's full of humor — is it says that God clogged the wheels of the Egyptian chariots. I love it.

54:58 Shelby: Is that the word it is?

54:59 Paul: Yes. So I don't know if God creates like somewhat a gunk in the wheel...

55:04 Shelby: Sludge...

55:04 Paul: But the wheels wouldn't move, right?

55:06 Shelby: Yes, yes, yes.

55:08 Paul: So it's not just that God's sovereign over created things, He's sovereign over mechanical things. So again, faith is faith in that God. When you just go back to the history that's described very briefly in this passage, you think, "Oh, my goodness, God is just pumping out His chest and saying, 'Watch what I will do on behalf of you.'"

55:33 Shelby: This captured me in a unique way. My parents gave my wife and I and my kids tickets to Sight & Sound in the Lancaster area, and it was Moses they were doing. And near the end, it's where he parts the Red Sea.

55:49 And when the sea parts, you know, it's a stage production of this biblical event, they turn these fans on when the "water" parts. And it was in this theater where there's hundreds of people, maybe close to a thousand people, I could feel the energy behind just getting the fakeness of a Red Sea parting.

56:12 And I thought to myself what if I were actually there feeling the wind and the spray of the water coming against my face, and then the ground turns dry? It was a little, tiny taste of, like I have no idea what this would have been like. Just the power of that, like you said, God puffing on His chest and, "Look what I can do." Had a little tiny taste of that in a stage production. Can you imagine if you were actually there?

56:36 Paul: Yes, and the cloud by day and the fire by night, the primary purpose of that was not guidance. The primary purpose of that was presence. "I'm with you and I'm going to remind you that I'm with you by giving you something physical to look at that's a representative of something you can't see. There you go again.

57:01 Shelby: There you go.

57:03 Paul: It's beautiful and yet, here's a struggle of faith. The Israelites watching the army of Egypt come down, they go after Moses. "What were there not enough graves in Egypt? We've come out here and die? We should have known not to follow you." I mean, they're saying to one another, "Did you vote for Moses? I didn't vote for Moses," and that's a worthy discussion to have because I think much of our horizontal anger is vertical anger displaced.

57:47 Shelby: For sure.

57:50 Paul: So who they're really angry at is God because Moses didn't get them out of Egypt. Moses didn't turn them back in front of the Red Sea. Moses didn't have a clue. They were being guided by the very presence of God.

58:12 And you know, when you're angry at something in your life, someone, well, who placed that person in your life? Who walked you into this very moment? God did. And I think, to the degree that you're able to begin to ask yourself the question, how much of my horizontal anger is really vertical anger, how much of my anger with people and situations and things is really anger with God, it begins to help you not be so comfortable with that horizontal anger because you're actually not shaking your fist in a human being. You're shaking your fist at God.

58:59 Shelby: Right, yes. Well, if a person finds themselves in that situation and God has given them the grace to be able to see that that, "Hey, you're not really angry at this person or this situation. You're angry at me," what's the best next step to take in that moment?

59:17 Paul: Well, I think if you've expressed anger at another human being... I've done this in my marriage, say, "What I've just expressed at you is never appropriate. There's nothing you could ever do that gives me the right to speak the way I just spoke to you."

59:45 So I want to start there and then, I want to say, "God, I have such a hard time submitting to Your sovereignty. I want to be in control of my life and when I'm not, it's so easy for me to go after the person in my life."

1:00:12 That's James 4. Hear these words. "^[1]What causes fights and quarrels amongst you? Don't they come for our desires that wage war within us?" You want something and you can't have it, so you kill and cover. Now, notice what he says next. ^4aYou adulterous people. What is he talking about? Has he changed the subject? No, he's saying the human conflict is rooted in spiritual adultery. Wow!

1:00:45 Shelby: I know, wow. It makes me pause and go, "Wow, let's properly diagnose what's actually happening when things are flying off the handle and I'm getting all emotional about stuff." Let's properly diagnose what's happening and I think once you actually get at the diagnosis, then you can get on the solution side because if you're unaware of what the problem is, you'll just keep flailing. That's really, really good.

1:01:07 Paul: So I'm in conflict with you because I'm ruled by my desires rather than ruled by my Lord. I know, for example, let's take Luella. Luella would never get up in the morning and say, "Sometime today, I'm going to irritate the snuff out of Paul because I just love to do that."

1:01:34 Shelby: Somebody might do that. Luella wouldn't, yes, yes.

1:01:36 Paul: It's never going to happen and so, she's not the problem. The problem is inside of me and that's where it's really helpful. James understands, under the inspiration Holy Spirit, that the way we usually explain anger is by looking out.

1:01:56 Paul: So you ask the kid, "Why did you hit your sister?" What's he going to say? "She always..." And we do that, too, and so, James says, "No, no, no, no, no, no, no." You'll never understand your anger that way. If you want to understand your anger, you need to look in and where are there desires — ruling, controlling, desires — that have placed me in conflict with this person?

1:02:27 Shelby: This is really helpful. I feel like I'm being counseled right now. I wanted to pick up my phone so many times and jot down a few things that you said. This is gold in so many ways because we don't know what to do with these things.

1:02:41 We just think I get angry sometimes or everybody annoys me or my wife is the problem or my kids are unruly or my boss is a jerk or traffic is always bad. It's so easy when you're angry to just point to other things and say, "You and that and this environment is the problem."

1:03:03 Rarely do we first go inside of us and you even said this before. You can have two people pulling up in traffic. One is banging their hand against the steering wheel because they're late for something and they look in the car next to them, and the woman is doing her makeup and excited that she has a few extra minutes in the car.

1:03:26 In the exact same situation, but both of them are acting in totally different ways. So it's not about the situation, it's about the person. It's about what's going on in the inside of them. You use that illustration, right?

1:03:37 Paul: Yes, absolutely, and this is all embedded in this passage that we're talking about because the history of that is there and that struggle of anger against Moses is really a struggle of values because what do I value in that moment?

1:03:59 I value an easy, predictable, understandable life and now, I'm in this situation and I don't understand what's going on; and so, I attack the leader. It's values rather than, "Wow! God's brought us out of Egypt. We've seen over the last month a display of power that's just remarkable. He's present with us. We can see Him at night and see Him during the day. He's with us."

1:04:43 Shelby: I'd like to say that I would be one of the Israelites that goes at the front of the Red Sea with the Egyptian army coming behind us, I'd like to say that I'd be someone that goes, "What's God going to do? This is going to be so cool. Watch this, watch this," and be excited about it. But no, I'd be the exact same. I'd be like, "Well, this is Moses' fault."

1:05:02 Paul: Yes, I'd be saying, "Moses, are you on crack? I mean, come on, what are you doing?"

1:05:10 Shelby: I don't think you'd say that exactly, but something like that. "Are you on crack?" I don't think that's in the scripture.

1:05:18 Paul: So faith and values... because the epicenter of the discussion of faith in this historical moment is ²⁴By faith Moses, when he was grown up, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter, ²⁵choosing rather to be mistreated with the people of God than to enjoy the fleeting pleasures of sin.

1:05:44 What a statement of values! This man was walking away from the palace of the ruling nation of the world. He had everything at his disposal and what was he choosing? What was of greater value to him? Not Israelite riches. "Choosing to be mistreated with the people of God."

1:06:18 Shelby: Crazy.

1:06:19 Paul: Would I choose to be mistreated for God's sake over affluence and power? Would I? That's a haunting question.

1:06:36 Shelby: Yes. I'm sure we'd like to say yes, but we don't know.

1:06:40 Paul: Faith would say yes. "Yes, I would." And then, it says ²⁶He considered the reproach of Christ greater wealth than the treasures of Egypt, for he was looking to the reward.

1:07:00 Shelby: That's where I wanted you to double-click.

1:07:02 Paul: Its imagination. We don't know how much Abraham understood, but there must have been some sense of a promised Messiah and an envisioning of the reward that would be his if he did not give way to fear, but follow God by faith.

1:07:41 Shelby: Yes, I love it when, in particular, the New Testament refers to Christ being present in the Old Testament amongst His people and it remixes my category. It reshuffles everything. He goes, "By the way, Moses was thinking about this back then."

1:08:07 Or think about even the transfiguration on the mountain that happened when Christ is there talking with Moses and they're old friends. They weren't foreign to one another. They were rekindling their relationship in a physical way that Peter and James and John were able to see, but it wasn't new to them. And Moses looked forward to Christ, who became a person who walked the earth, who was real, but he was very much present in the Old Testament. I just love that kind of stuff.

1:08:48 Paul: Yes, and He's present in the burning bush. He's present in the fire in the cloud. He's the angel passing over Egypt. It's all Jesus.

1:09:06 Shelby: Yes, he's the fourth man in the furnace with Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego.

1:09:10 Paul: Yes, yes. So I don't know the level of Moses' understanding, but it was Christ that was motivating him and he stood at this fork in the road. "Here's wealth and power beyond my imagination and here are these mistreated slaves, but they're the people of God. They're the inheritors of the promises of God. There's the place where the Messiah of God dwells.

1:10:02 And what are the values that propel me during the day? What are the values that make me happy? What are the values that produce my contentment? These values, the New Testament tells us if we suffer (1 Peter 4) that we are blessed.

1:10:37 Romans 5, Paul says he rejoices in his afflictions. I mean, I can understand tolerating them because he's sharing in the sufferings of Christ and if you're faithful, there will come, with the faithfulness of faith, misunderstanding, mistreatment, so much so Peter says, "Why are you surprised? Is this something strange was happening to you?" And I think often, we are surprised and we do feel a bit forsaken by God because we're suffering.

1:11:30 So it's really, really important to say that the life of faith is driven by values. It's driven by what's important to me and there's a lot of illustrations of that in scripture, like the parable the man who sells everything to buy the field because there's a treasure in the field. That's those statements of value.

1:12:07 And you know, we're value-oriented people. We're important [inaudible] oriented. We're goal-oriented. The way we're higher we are. That's all meant to drive us to God. The word "treasure" is really picked up by Jesus in Matthew 6 where He says don't live for earthly treasure.

1:12:30 And you know that you've heard me talk about this or these three treasure principles. Better than that, everybody lives for some kind of treasure. The thing that is your treasure will control your heart. What controls your heart will control your behavior.

1:12:46 So everyday, you get up, Shelby and you're after treasure. You're after what's important to you and the question is what is that? And you're distressed when there are things in the way of what you treasure. That's what's remarkable about Moses is what he treasured is so far from what a human being would typically treasure. His wealth was mistreatment for the sake of Christ.

1:13:38 Shelby: Yes, being misunderstood constantly and if you say it's the Promised Land, you're missing the point because Moses never saw the Promised Land, so what does that tell you? It's not about this crossing the finish line, running through the tape victoriously and, "I finally got here." No, it's not about that. It's about the relationship with God. It's about being in process with Him.

1:14:03 Paul: I surreptitiously set up the next conversation by our discussion on imagination.

1:14:11 Shelby: Thank you for doing that.

1:14:14 Paul:²⁷By faith he left Egypt, not being afraid of the anger of the king, for he endured as seeing Him who is invisible. Imagination.

1:14:26 Shelby: There it is right there. Yes. As I read that, I was thinking it's the same thing,

1:14:31 Paul: So he wasn't just ruled by what he could physically see. He was seeing the rage of the most powerful ruler on earth, but he saw something greater, something real and that's what propelled him.

1:15:07 I love that. "Not being afraid of the anger of the king, for he endured as seeing Him who is invisible." It actually uses the word "seeing". It's meant to confront us because your natural response is you can't see what's invisible. That's ridiculous. But you can because you've been given that capacity by God to see as real what is unseen.

1:15:35 Shelby: Yes, and that is faith. Yes, because you know, as a young believer, thinking that faith depended on me and faith being this kind of nebulous thing of, "I don't understand exactly what it is." You and I have joked about this, "Well, what is faith? Well, faith is belief. Well, what is belief? Belief is trust. Well, what is trust? Trust is faith," and you're right back at it again.

1:16:05 And I lived there for so, so long of not being able to ground what faith actually was and going through Hebrews 11 with you has been so, so helpful, not only for me, I'm sure for lots of people to be able to understand what faith actually is, pull it apart, help us to see that it's maybe not as complicated as we make it out to be, but it's also not as simple as we make it out to be.

1:16:33 Paul: And then you have verse 28. ²⁸By faith he kept the Passover and sprinkled the blood, so that the Destroyer of the firstborn might not touch them. Again, faith holds on to the promises of God.

1:16:47 So at that moment when you're sprinkling the blood, that's absolutely a stupid, irrational thing to do unless God is real and His promises are true. You can't describe that any other way. You think, okay, blood on the doors are going to keep you from dying. What kind of nut are you?

1:17:07 Shelby: Yes, it's so bizarre when you think about it.

1:17:10 Paul: And I think that's why often, people who are not believers look at us and think we're crazy because apart from being able to see Him who is invisible and the belief that His promises are real and true, so much of what we would do would make no sense at all. I mean, if God isn't real and His promises aren't true, I'm not going to church on Sunday. I'm going to have a bagel and watch CBS [News] Sunday Morning.

1:17:58 Shelby: [Inaudible] window... CBS [News] Sunday Morning. I was thinking pre-game stuff for football, but sure. But I understand what you mean. Yes, if you don't value it, if you don't have faith, what's the point? It's religion. It's just ritualistic. We go because it makes us feel better.

1:18:21 Paul:²⁹By faith the people crossed the Red Sea as on dry land, but the Egyptians, when they attempted to do the same, were drowned. Now, it's interesting. We give huge disrespect and discredit to the children of Israel; but as messy as it was, they were also exercising faith. Can you imagine walking between those walls of water? Would you have not been terrified?

1:18:55 Shelby: Yes, totally terrified, yes.

1:18:58 Paul: I mean, that's an act of faith. You're trusting that God will preserve you and we just don't talk about that enough.

1:19:10 Shelby: Yes, pretty scary when you think about it.

1:19:12 Paul:³⁰By faith the walls of Jericho fell down after they had been encircled for seven days. This is, again, hilarious. I mean, the way you defeat an army... it's reported that the walls of Jericho were wide enough, you could ride a chariot around the top of them. You don't do that by having a parade.

1:19:41 Shelby: With trumpets.

1:19:44 Paul: Not just one day. For seven days.

1:19:47 Shelby: Yes, we don't do anything for seven days anymore.

1:19:52 Paul: Now, in order to do that, you would have to exercise faith and so, we should understand that these people are not totally faithless. Is there a struggle of faith? Their struggle of faith is laid bare for us because it is a mirror into which we can look and see our struggle of faith. But there's faith being exercised, so much so that it's here in this chapter about faith. I mean, I can imagine saying, "I'm not going to the parade."

1:20:33 Shelby: Yes, or you wake up day five and you're like, "Well, here we are again. We're going to do this and look like idiots marching around the city." Yes, like you said, it's good mirror for us to see, like, "Hey, they did something that they no doubt felt ridiculous doing," but they were being obedient, probably messy, probably had internal conflict the whole time, but it's the faith of a mustard seed. It's not, "Let me be super, super strong," because if we think, "Oh, those people of faith," like you said, that's a man of faith. I could never be that. People will look at someone like...

1:21:13 Paul: Because we make it about the man.

1:21:14 Shelby: Yes, because we make it about that person. Moses — a lot of people forget this — Moses was a horrible public speaker, a very, very bad public speaker. You are a good communicator. I'd like to say I'm a good communicator.

1:21:26 People understand that it's easy to follow someone who could communicate well. What is it like following a leader who has to have his brother speak for him? That feels ridiculous, doesn't it? I think that requires faith in and of itself.

1:21:41 Paul: What a loser.

1:21:43 Shelby: Well, God's power is made perfect in weakness, as we dive into this.

1:21:45 Paul: Yes, absolutely. I love this last one, too. ³¹By faith Rahab the prostitute... By faith, Rahab the prostitute.

1:21:57 Shelby: Let's not skip over that real quick.

1:21:59 Paul:³¹...did not perish with those who were disobedient, because she had given a friendly welcome to the spies. Again, we have to live with the fact that the history of scripture is selective and we don't know how Rahab became a person of faith, but she's named that in this passage. Her faith was exhibited by the fact that she was willing to protect the spies who had come into Jericho.

1:22:37 Shelby: At the same time being labeled a prostitute. She's both. She's both those things.

1:22:42 Paul: And those that name finds its way into the genealogy of Jesus.

1:22:48 Shelby: Yes, isn't that incredible?

1:22:49 Paul: There's what grace can do.

1:22:50 Shelby: Yes, it's so incredible.

1:22:52 Paul: You could say that if you were going to look for one of the most unworthy people in scripture, it would be Rahab. But that's not how scripture thinks about people because grace levels a playing field.

1:23:13 We're all unworthy. It's not degrees of worthiness. We're all unworthy because all have sinned and all have fallen short of the glory of God. And if you're grading people on a scale of worldliness, you've missed what faith is about.

1:23:37 Shelby: Yes, and many of us, we do that. I mean, I'm guilty of that, spending most of my life struggling with self-righteousness. Self-righteousness is essentially living a life of horizontal comparison. You look at other people and go, "This person's better. I'm better than this person," and God doesn't judge people by me compared to, you know, Trevor, whatever. It's not.

1:24:07 He compares me to His righteousness and it's really important to not be caught in that trap of constantly looking and saying, "That person is better than this person I'm better than that person. I'm better than a prostitute." Well, she's in scripture.

1:24:25 Paul: Well, the other thing that we surely should talk about here is if grace could meet Rahab and produce in her in the ability to believe, so much so that she's named in the genealogy of Jesus, there's hope for all of us.

1:24:49 If that grace has that power, it's worth putting your trust in. It's just beautiful that this discussion of values ends with this person that we wouldn't value, but who God values. And her values of faith allowed her to do something really courageous and very dangerous because she believed. It's beautiful.

1:25:23 Shelby: Yes, it's great.

1:25:27 Paul: So the final discussion here in Hebrews 11 is a really, really important one because for almost all of us, faith is lived in the context of incompletion. Theologically, we call that the "already" and the "not yet".

1:25:56 And so, we don't have the final reward. We don't have defeat of sin. We don't have the paradise that is to come. We don't have the reign of perfect righteousness and peace. We don't have a world that has been restored to its created splendor. We don't have perfection in ourselves or in our relationships.

1:26:28 We don't have any of those things and so, it's right that this passage ends that way because that's the normative life of faith. The normative life of faith is I hold on to the promises of God in the midst of incompletion.

1:26:50 I wish that my marriage was sin-free. I wish my children didn't have to battle with sin, but faith holds on because my faith is not in my situations. It's not in my relationship. It's not in any of those things. It's in God, like Abraham said, who I deeply believe is faithful and able to do what He promised. Why don't you read that last section

1:27:41 Shelby: Yes, verse 32. ³²And what more shall I say? For time would fail me to tell of Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, of David and Samuel and the prophets— ³³who through faith conquered kingdoms, enforced justice, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions, ³⁴quenched the power of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, were made strong out of weakness, became mighty in war, put foreign armies to flight.

1:28:11 ³⁵Women received back their dead by resurrection. Some were tortured, refusing to accept release, so that they might rise again to a better life. ³⁶Others suffered mocking and flogging, and even chains and imprisonment. ³⁷They were stoned, they were sawn in two, they were killed with the sword. They went about in skins of sheep and goats, destitute, afflicted, mistreated— ³⁸of whom the world was not worthy—wandering about in deserts and mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.

1:28:43 ³⁹And all these, though commended through their faith, did not receive what was promised, ⁴⁰since God had provided something better for us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect.

1:29:02 Paul: You know when you see media descriptions of faith, it tends to be the first part of this passage. You know, it's the conquering kingdoms.

1:29:26 Shelby: Power, influence, acclaim.

1:29:28 Paul: But I think it's important that this passage did not end that way, but ended with the recognition that the life of faith is often — maybe even normally — a life of suffering. For some in our generation, there are Christians who are now being tortured. One of the guys I sat with on a conference in Chiang Mai in Thailand, Chinese pastor is now in prison.

1:30:10 Shelby: Is he really? Wow?

1:30:11 Paul: Probably going to be in prison for his life for no other reason than his faith. Everyday, believers will be mocked. Doors of opportunity will be closed to them. And I think the summary here is so important and all of these, though commended through their faith, did not receive what was promised.

1:30:48 Shelby: Yes. A window into reality there.

1:30:54 Paul: That am I willing to do what we talked about early? Hold on to God's promises to my seeing Him on His throne, even though today, I don't seem any closer to those promises. It's right to cry, "How long?" It's right to weep. But do I believe? Do I really believe? Do I really believe? It's almost haunting that this passage ends with "³⁹And all these, though commended through their faith, did not receive what was promised."

1:32:02 And we receive more because we have a greater understanding. I mean, Shelby, Moses would sit at your feet because you have knowledge of the way of God and the plan of redemption that would blow his mind, but like us, they are waiting for perfection. So all those saints of old, they're waiting too. They wait with us.

1:32:45 Shelby: Yes, that's good to remind ourselves that we're all waiting for this promise that is yet to come, but will come.

1:32:59 Paul: Because the final victory hasn't happened yet, since it's not fully recovered. 1 Corinthians 15 passage on the resurrection says that Jesus must reign until every enemy is under His feet. The last enemy is death and then, He will usher in the kingdom. He will say to his children from the beginning to the end, "Children, all things are now ready. Enter into My kingdom."

1:33:32 Now, it means that Jesus is now reigning, and in ways we don't see and understand, He is putting enemies under His feet. Does it look like that to me? No, this world to me looks like it's out of control, like it's worse than it ever was; but I must look at it with the eyes of faith and there'll be a day when the last enemy is defeated and we will be invited into that eternal kingdom that is beautiful beyond our wildest imaginations.

1:34:14 Shelby: Yes, and like you said that this verse of not receiving what was promised gives us this shining example of faith because a person who walks by faith and doesn't get that prize at the end communicates that it's not about that prize. It's about that relationship that exists between me and God by faith because it's not "God + whatever that thing that you want" that will make me happy. It's "Jesus + nothing = everything".

1:34:48 Paul: So that's the logic of faith. Look, if you make a promise to me, my ability to embrace the promise is not the promise. It's you. If you make the promise to me and I trust that promise, it's because I trust you.

1:35:12 So holding on to the promise means I'm holding on to God. I want to I believe that He really does exist, that He really does rule, that His plan marches on. And in Romans 8 when Paul is talking about suffering, he says all things work together for good. And he says, "For who He called, He justify and sanctify and glorify."

1:35:43 What is he saying? What's the good there? It's not that everything's going to turn out nice. It's that nothing will stop the march of redemption no matter how bad it seems. Redemption marches on because God will be faithful to His promises. He will complete His plan. He will be the victor and the final kingdom will come.

1:36:08 Shelby: Yes, and in that process, Romans 8, we groan. You know, we're groaning. The whole world is groaning; but again, even though we're marching up to the edge of the Red Sea, doesn't mean that there's nothing that's going to happen or we're going to die.

1:36:21 Paul: And it drives me crazy when Romans 8:28 is turned into this promise that there'll be a nice gift-wrapping at the end of every hard experience. It's not what it's promising. It's really promising us that God will be faithful and all those glorious things He promised you will take place. His plan of redemption in your life will march on no matter what.

1:36:51 Shelby: Yes, let me hold on to that, as opposed to all the other things that I think that I need to make me happy.

1:36:59 Paul: Now, one of the other things I think is worth talking about is that no matter what you're dealing with, life in the middle is always hard. In the beginning, you're excited with newness. In the end, you celebrate completion. But in the middle, it's hard.

1:37:23 Whether that's a baseball season with a ridiculous amount of games and somewhere 80, and you think, "Oh, my goodness, this season will never end." Or it's parenting, where you're excited when the child is born and you have a vision some day they will exit your home, but it's such a long process and faith is its strongest in the middle. Faith is its most necessary in the middle because that's where we live.

1:38:03 Shelby: Yes, I'm at a spot now with my kids. My oldest daughter just entered high school, literally, yesterday. And often, I find myself thinking, you know, that phrase of when you're parenting, the years are short but the days are long. That's really true. It just feels very, very true.

1:38:26 The days feel long, but then, I blink and my daughter is in ninth grade and going to high school. I remember high school. That's a formative part of my memory of who I am and it's just so strange to think about she's going to be gone, probably moving out of our house in just a few short years.

1:38:46 Paul: This is the difference between your life and mine. My four children don't remember high school.

1:38:52 Shelby: Let alone you. You don't remember high school.

1:38:55 Paul: So in this life in the middle, what God gives us is Himself. Is that enough for me that I have God? What faith embraces is that the best gift ever is the giver, that God is His best gift to us. And so, there's a lot of things that are uncomfortable, there's a lot of things that are hard, but God has come to me and He's made Himself known to me. He's promised me His forgiveness. He's promised me His presence. He's bestowed on me His wisdom.

1:40:02 He gives me the ability to see Him, although He's not seen, and to envision the glories that are to come. It is enough. It is enough. Is it enough? It's so easy to fall into wanting more and judging God as unfaithful, unloving, unkind, distant, and uncaring because He's not giving me things that I think would make the difference for me. Well, if God isn't enough, nothing will ever be enough.

1:41:00 Shelby: Yes, it's really important to remember.

1:41:02 Paul: Faith stands satisfied and is that always my experience? I will confess it's not and so, we return to the beginning of our conversation today. "Lord, I believe. Help my unbelief. I want to say what You have given me is enough. In Your Son, in Your grace, in Your presence, in Your power exercised on my behalf, in Your sovereign rule on my behalf, it is enough. And I want to be faithful until I'm on the other side. And for that, I need grace.

1:42:04 "Please meet me. Please enliven my imagination, enliven my hope, enliven my trust. May I be willing to face hardship and thinking that's of greater value than turning my back on You to find comfort."

1:42:40 I think that's the faith that gets you through marriage. You know, what is marriage? It's a flawed person married to a flawed person in a fallen world, but with a faithful God. What is parenting? It's asked to do the impossible, but with a faithful God.

1:43:08 Shelby: We're seeing trials come, a loved one die of cancer, losing a child, going through excruciating pain, raising a child with a disability. Yes, there's so many different things that we go through all day, everyday, with a faithful God.

1:43:30 Paul: Yes, and again, you have to recognize that none of this is an accident. God chose between the "already" our conversion and the "not yet" of our home-going to put us in this world that is so broken, the world itself groans. That's not an interruption of God's plan. It's not a failure of God's plan. It is His plan and if it's God's plan, then suffering is not meaningless. It's not just beaten around by impersonal forces.

1:44:15 It's all under the careful administration of a God who is a summary definition of everything that's good and wise and holy. And so, you have to ask, to say, part of faith is why is all of this happening to me? And either you conclude there's no rationale in this universe or there's a God who is good, who has purpose in all that we're facing.

1:44:55 Shelby: That can get you through anything.

1:44:56 Paul: What's the other alternative? There isn't any. Do you face things you wish weren't in your life? Of course. Is it wrong to cry out to God? Of course, it's not. Is it wrong to pray for His deliverance? Of course it's not. But ultimately, faith says God is God and I am not. I can never cross the creature divine line and so, I will be confounded.

1:45:38 Shelby: Yes, because if you understood everything, you would be God.

1:45:41 Paul: Yes, so you can struggle with that and just be in a wrestling match with God, which is such a horrible experience. Or you can say, "Faith rests. I believe in God. I believe He's good. I believe all of His ways are right and true, and I'm not going to pick up that debate anymore in my life."

1:46:14 Shelby: Yes, stop wrestling and cling.

1:46:15 Paul: Yes, and I will hold on to Him and hold on to His promises knowing that actually it's He holding on to me. Well, that's it.

1:46:27 Shelby: That's a beautiful way to end our multiple-hour conversation on faith and really, like I said, diving in, double-tapping on things, pulling things apart helps us to understand a lot more in a robust way. So thank you for unpacking that. I have learned so, so much in these last several podcasts about the element of faith, which can, like I said, seem so nebulous. We've grounded it in a lot of ways by you just going to the source.

1:46:55 Paul: I want to say one final word of encouragement, that you may be listening and saying, "I don't have this faith. My life has been a struggle to believe," and the answer to that is really the gospel that Jesus came to earth as the second Adam.

1:47:39 The first Adam failed. The second Adam came to be a perfect example of faith. But more than an example, He came as our substitute. Jesus never had a moment of doubt. He perfectly believed, perfect trust in the will of His Father, precisely because He knew we wouldn't. God's not shocked at your struggle of faith.

1:48:17 Shelby: Yes, that's good to remind ourselves.

1:48:20 Paul: That's why the life of Jesus is so important because He's living the life of faith on your behalf, so you can stand before God with weakened and broken faith, and He won't turn His back on you. Should you desire for more and better? Absolutely, you should, but you should not hide in shame because Jesus shamed shame on the cross.

1:48:52 I can stand in front of God broken and failing, own my disbelief and He welcomes me because my standing before Him is not based on the track record of my faith. It's based on the track record of the righteousness of Jesus.

1:49:17 And I just want you to know that in your weakness and brokenness, in the ways that your faithlessness has been exposed, as we've talked for all these hours, don't run from God. Run to Him. He's already purchased your righteousness. Run to Him.

1:49:40 Shelby: And He loves needy people, so admit your neediness.

1:49:46 Paul: Yes. Let's pray.

1:49:53 Lord, in these conversations, not only has the nature and operation of faith been revealed and unpacked and explained to us through Your Word, but our hearts have been exposed. And You expose hearts not to condemn, but to redeem; not to turn Your back on us, but to turn Your face toward us and to remind us again, our hope has never been in us. It's always been in You. In the up and down, and in and out of our struggles with faith, may we run to You, and find Your mercy and Your grace in our time of need. Thank You. We hold on to You. We hold on to Your promises. We see in the imagination of our hearts You sitting on the throne. We see Your final kingdom and we say it's worth it. We will follow in Jesus' name. Amen.