Transcript

00:00 Paul Tripp: Well, Shelby, here we are again...

00:01 Shelby Abbott: One more time.

00:02 Paul: The Connecting Podcast. I think you're probably the same as me. I have a great sense of privilege that we get to do this and talk about things that are significant and important that are not only biblical, but God's plan for his people and evangelism surely is one of those.

00:28 I want to talk today about lifestyle evangelism, that there are occasions where your evangelistic ministry begins with words. Somebody you don't know you encounter on the street, somebody you pursue on a college campus, or, you know, whatever.

00:52 Shelby: Ever engaged in conversation with them before, yes.

00:54 Paul: But most of your evangelistic opportunities are going to be with people that you regularly encounter and so, they are watching your life. Your words will always be in some kind of life context and so, I think it's important to look at scriptures that speak to that.

01:20 But I want to blow this up helicopter-view first. One of the things that has impressed me as I've studied the Old Testament is almost always when God unleashes His power in some miraculous way in the Old Testament, He says that He's doing this so that the nations would know that He is the Lord.

01:53 God's witness to His glory and His truthfulness, His existence is not just in His Word revelation, but in the display of His power. It's "Believe Me for who I am and what I do". Jesus very clearly picks that up in His life on earth and we get this recorded in the gospels.

02:26 Every miracle is meant to preach the gospel to us and Jesus once said to people who are questioning His divine claims, "If you don't believe Me for my words, believe Me for my work's sake."

02:45 So evangelism that emphasizes the way you live in front of others is just [an] expression of who God is and again, it's "Be holy like I am holy. Imitate Me," because from the beginning, God, you can say, with all the display of His power, had evangelistic intentions and Jesus with all the display of His power had evangelistic intentions, and we ought to live evangelistically. We're to live aware. Because I have some notoriety because of my writing, Luella will say to me all the time as we're leaving the door we need to be careful because we may be on camera.

03:49 Shelby: Yes, people are watching you.

03:50 Paul: People are watching and we want to be a good witness even if people don't ever come up to us.

04:00 Shelby: Right, and not for your sake. And that's what one of the things I love about Luella, drawing your attention to keeping the main thing the main thing of a lot of people who do have notoriety want to go out and make sure that they're behaving a certain way because it reflects on them as a person. But I know you and I know your wife, and it's because you want the name of Jesus to be magnified. You don't want to sully that at all.

04:25 Paul: Yes, and it's so easy in a moment of irritation, impatience to forget this divine calling that, literally, every moment of your life is evangelistic. If you're a parent, that's inside your home. You have children that need to know Jesus.

04:52 If you live in a normal community, there are neighbors around you all the time. If you work outside of your home, your life is on display all the time. If you participate in art and culture, you're out in places where there are people, your life is on display.

05:12 I can remember in traveling when we would be in situations where there were airline problems or ticket got messed up, I used to say to Steve, "We need to be careful because we're representing Someone here. Yes, this is irritating and yes, this may mess up our schedule, but the way we handle this is really important, so easy to forget that."

05:42 Shelby: Yes, just yesterday, we were in the car as a family. We had come out of the school because my daughter had an orchestra performance. We got in the car and those are the moments when everything's just the rawest and the most honest.

05:58 So the kids are getting in, we're trying to get some place because we have some place to go and I noticed that we're saying the normal things that we would say without filters at all. And fortunately, we were all in good moods and talking normally.

06:13 And then all of a sudden, this voice pops up from my wife's lap. She's like, "Uh, hello," and we were like, "What? Where's that voice coming from?" My wife had accidentally pressed FaceTime on a friend of ours and then, she lifts her phone up.

06:28 She goes, "Do you guys know that I'm here," and I immediately thought to myself, "What have we been saying as a family that represents Jesus? Are we actually representing the Lord?" We had no idea that this woman was listening to us, but that was an example where I was like, "Okay, we're good now," but it convicted me because I'm like, "Why am I always... we're not always thinking who's listening because the Lord is always watching."

06:57 He's always caring about what our words are. How much more should we be that representation to people who are around us? We don't want to just be the real us when nobody else is watching. We want to live that life internally because it's the heart and that will be a natural spillover into how we behave around believers and non-believers all the time.

07:19 Paul: Yes, it reminds me of what the apostle John said, that "I must decrease so He would increase", that we make ourselves too big, too important. Like I was having lunch on Tuesday with one of the guys that I regularly get together with and mentor, and I ordered my food and nothing that I ordered came.

07:51 What came was like in a different universe from what I ordered and, in that moment, I don't make a bit of difference. I mean, I'm just one of 200 people in that restaurant. That's not personal. This person didn't go back and say, "I'm going to drive this man crazy. I'm going to bring something he would never eat."

08:13 None of that is going on. In fact, it was quite embarrassing to the server and you could see that, and it was real important to reassure her that it was okay. It didn't make any difference, but it's so easy to go the other direction in those moments and that is making yourself too big.

08:38 It's making yourself too important. It's saying my time, my comfort, my pleasure is the important thing of the moment and it's just not. And I want to say as we begin this conversation that everything we're going to talk about from this point on is totally unnatural for us.

09:03 It's natural to put myself in the center. It's natural to want to be sovereign and things happen the way I envisioned they'd happen. And it's natural not to have to want to wait and natural not to want anybody to disagree with me and all those things. And so, everything we're talking about is only possible because of God's rescuing, transforming, and empowering grace.

09:30 If what we talk about today doesn't make the watchers or hearers cry out for grace, we failed because that's what it's causing in me. Just, "Lord, give me the grace to live this way because this is not natural for me."

09:48 Shelby: Yes, it's almost like the law exposes our need for a Savior, a Rescuer.

09:53 Paul: And I'm the cook in our family and we always have dinner at six o'clock. And when I make dinner and it's ready and Luella is not, I can feel that thing in my chest. "Come on."

10:13 Shelby: That natural thing, yes.

10:14 Paul: And again, it's not an offense against me. It's not an offense against God. Luella obviously has something that's taken place. She wouldn't do this on purpose. And so, all of those moments, we just need to cry out for God's grace. And I think one of the things that I pray for and I would encourage others to pray for is every morning, "Today, wherever I am, oh, Lord, please help me to represent You well."

10:57 Shelby: Yes, that's a great mindset to have, not only as you walk out the door, but as you get up before your feet hit the floor, to say, "Help me to represent You, not only to the people who don't know You, but to my spouse, to my kids," because the influence that you have with the people in the walls of your own home is arguably the greatest influence that you will ever have and your kids, whether they know it or not, are always watching.

11:24 They're always paying attention, so when you have those moments like when you're frustrated that she's not ready in the time that you want her to be ready before dinner, you're representing Jesus to your wife and I think we take that for granted sometimes because it feels so common. It's so average. We're spending a lot of time with these people all the time and it doesn't matter that much. It does matter. It really does.

11:47 Paul: Yes, so I want to start with Matthew 5, beginning with verse 13.

11:54 Shelby: Sermon on the Mount.

11:55 Paul: This passage is, yes, it is in the middle of the longest recorded teaching of Jesus and there is so much about the nature of the life that He wants us to live and empowers us to live in these chapters 5-7. It's just an incredible, beautiful, precious, deep mine of truth and this passage is right after the well-known Beatitudes. Even people who have never read the Bible know that term, Beatitudes. So let me read.

12:45 ¹³You are the salt of the earth, but if salt has lost its taste, how [then] shall its saltiness be restored? It is no longer good for anything except to be thrown out and trampled under people's feet.¹⁴You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hidden. ¹⁵Nor do people light a lamp and put it under a basket, but [put] on a stand, and it gives light to all in the house. ¹⁶In the same way, let your light shine before others, so that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven.

Oh, my goodness, there's so much to talk about in this passage.

13:26 Shelby: Yes, yes, you can unpack this forever.

13:29 Paul: So there are two main word pictures here, salt and light, that are our Savior's description of our place in this fallen world. It's like He's saying if you want to know what your role is, your place. It's like when I took my first job, I was a stock boy at JC Penney's, big department store, big stock room.

14:01 I'm dropped in there. I am paralyzed because I don't know my place. I know where I am. I know some things about it, but I have no idea what my role is supposed to be there. And I'm terrified and I'm thinking, "I'm just going to mess up because I know nothing about nothing right now."

14:23 Well, Jesus loves us enough, He would never leave us in that circumstance and so, in this lengthy teaching that He's doing, He wants us to start by knowing this is your role in this world. Well, that's pretty big stuff. That means we should pay attention and I've always thought in Christian discipleship that these verses I've read don't get the play that they should get because this is the Savior.

14:57 He's choosing His words well. He's choosing His topics carefully and He starts by saying, "I want you to know what your role is, no matter who you are, no matter where you are, no matter your location, situation, or relationships, this is your place in this fallen world."

15:16 Shelby: Okay, and He's chosen to use language that everybody would understand, especially, at the time, what the roles of salt and light are. Little bit different now from our perspective looking backward because salt is used maybe a little bit differently today.

15:37 It's more common. It's on the tables as we eat, but salt was used differently back then and light is obviously different now. We have electricity. We're able to see things up until the dark hours of the morning if we wanted to, but light was different back then and so, He's using these illustrations that's common to anybody who's listening.

15:58 Paul: So again, part of what is important about these two word pictures and you hinted at it at what you just said, is essentiality. Salt was absolutely essential in this culture in ways we don't get. Light was absolutely essential in this culture in ways that we don't understand and so, Jesus is saying your function in this fallen world is essential by His understanding.

16:37 The world won't think it's essential, but Christ is saying, "This is absolutely essential in My sovereign, wise plan for My world," and so, while if you ever think in any moment your life that your life is not worth living, that your life doesn't have meaning and purpose, run to this passage because Jesus is saying, "You're important. Your function is important. If no one ever gives you credit, I've given you life and breath and placed you in this fallen world because your function has meaning and purpose." Isn't that beautiful?

17:20 Shelby: Yes, it's really beautiful and I never really even thought about it that way. The essentialness of how God wants to utilize us in the world, it gives us value. It gives us esteem, honor in many ways.

17:33 Paul: Yes, it sure does. I love the way that Francis Schaeffer, great Christian philosopher, theologian talked about, as he said, there are no little people and I love that. That unknown plumber or electrician or person who bags groceries or you just list... maid at a hotel that is one of God's children has as much purpose as me and my known ministry because that person is salt and that person is light, just as much as I'm salt and light.

18:20 Shelby: Yes, and a lot of times, there are people who have those unseen roles in the world end up being the ones that God utilizes to the greatest degree. The weak are the strong. The less are the great and those backwards principles of the kingdom are always difficult for us to wrap our minds around.

18:41 Paul: Yes, it is an upside-down kingdom. The thing that it also makes me think about is we have developed in evangelical Christianity this very broad line between full-time ministry and everybody else.

19:00 Shelby: Okay, what do you mean by that?

19:01 Paul: Well, the pastor, the missionary, the paid Christian worker, those are the essential people. Those are and they're going to get a higher honor, and they've got blessings that we'll never have and all that's just not true.

19:25 In fact, in Ephesians 4, Paul is very clear that those pastor, teacher, evangelists are not the ministers of Christ's church. They're the equippers of the ministers of Christ's church. The ministers of Christ's church are the people in the pews and so, that's right in the same theme as this passage.

19:56 So let's pick apart the metaphors here. The main function of salt in New Testament culture was not as a seasoning. Perhaps it was used that way, but that was not its main function. Its main function was as a preservative because the technology of refrigeration had not yet been developed, that the main way meat would be preserved is it would be salted and hung and dried and salted, and it would last for months.

20:52 So when you think of that process, meat without salt would naturally corrupt and rot. Salt retards corruption and rot. There's the metaphor, so my presence in human culture as salt of the earth — what a title, salt of the earth — should be to retard corruption.

21:27 Shelby: Yes, and the phrase that we use now, "This guy's a salt-of-the-earth kind of guy," what does that actually mean today in comparison to what we're looking at metaphorically here? How are those two things different?

21:45 Paul: I don't think that that is used in all the way this passage does.

21:50 Shelby: Yes, I don't think so either. That's why I wanted to make sure that we're not flying over this and like, "Oh, yes, you're the salt-of-the-earth kind of guy." No, no, this is something different. Jesus is communicating here.

22:00 Paul: Yes, so this is "I'm committed to public moral living from the smallest moral choice to the greatest moral choice, so that I would be a corruption retardant in this fallen world".

22:23 Shelby: Yes, which gets back to what you were saying when we first started this conversation. People are watching. There is an intentionality that we need to live with and that role that we have that God has graciously given to us to play in this world as His representatives is something to prevent corruption and rot.

22:47 So Christians, yes, should be moral people. We should be the most moral people and not because we're trying to pat ourselves on the back and say, "Look how great we are in comparison to everybody else," but to really point to the beauty of who God is and how Jesus works in the world. We're supposed to be different in order to highlight His difference, how amazing He is.

23:10 Paul: So often when we talk about moral choices, we think of "I'm not going to steal, I'm not going to lie, I'm not going to commit adultery, I'm not going to stab somebody in the chest", you know, but you cannot live a day in your life without thousands of moral choices.

23:40 Like my illustration in the restaurant when I choose not to get mad at the server is a moral choice. If you decide not to yell at your child because they did something stupid but not disobedient, that's a moral choice. If I choose to be patient with Luella, that's a moral choice. If someone sort of bumps into the line in front of me and I don't give out that great big sigh that everybody can hear to let them know that I am ready to murder them, that's a moral choice.

24:26 So I think one of the reasons we fail to be salt and light is we don't think of the fact that we live morally. We're moral human beings. It's impossible not to have constant moral choice and your life is shaped by and your influence is shaped by thousands of little moral choice points.

24:53 Shelby: Yes, and I think that all of us can probably think of an example of someone who we know who represented leadership of some kind or spiritual leadership or a pastor or a full-time minister or even a parent who is supposed to be a moral authority and when we see them not behaving in a way that reflects what they talk about what other people should do — whether that be from the pulpit or how you're supposed to live your life authoritatively from a parent to a child — when we see that hypocrisy, it really sticks with us.

25:39 It really impacts us in a lot of ways. I've got plenty of examples of people who were representing the Bible, representing God, preaching from a pulpit or a stage and then, viewing their life behind the scenes and going, "Those two things don't add up. They don't equal one another," and the impact that had on me as a young person, it's devastating.

26:05 Paul: My first year in seminary, I was taking a preaching class and we were assigned text, and we had to preach in front of fellow students. And I preached my sermon and then, the professor who was critiquing me got up to lead the discussion of my sermon.

26:36 I mean, I knew all that was going to happen, but there was a word that I used that he didn't think the way that I used it was a word and he decided to mock me. And once the class began to giggle, he just went with it and it was horribly mortifying.

27:10 And I did go to him later and with a big bound Webster's Dictionary and I said, "Actually, the way I use the word was proper, but that doesn't bother me, that part," and he never acknowledged what he did in that class.

27:40 But I thought later, it wasn't just that you diminished me. You diminished your ministry because everybody in that room taking that preaching class thought, "This guy has a chance, he'll mock me," and it changed the whole tenor of that course.

28:02 Now, what important ministry to teach future pastors how to preach? We need to trust you and was that a big thing in his life? It's probably a moment in his life he would never remember, but he made a moral choice that was way more influential than he had any idea that it would be, and made himself large, got fun out of something that he shouldn't have gotten fun out of, and diminished that role that God had given him in the lives of these future pastors.

28:46 Shelby: Yes, I think, running with the metaphor of salt here, is that an example of someone who's wasting their saltiness? Would you say that that's something where it's not good, therefore, it should be trampled under the feet?

29:05 Paul: Well, that's exactly it. You know, when it says the salt has lost its savor, it doesn't mean it doesn't make food taste well. It means it doesn't any longer do what salt is meant to do. It doesn't function as that retardant of corruption, that preservative.

29:27 And so, what is it worth? It might as well just be pavement because it's lost its worth and I want to say this in in a way that could get some misunderstanding, but it's fairly easy to live worthlessly.

29:54 Shelby: Yes, what do you mean?

29:55 Paul: Well, it means you're not being that salt and so, the high honor, high worthy position that you've been given to retard corruption is not happening through you. Doesn't mean you don't have worth, but it means your way of living has lost its worth.

30:16 You've run away from what God has called for you to be and to do. And you know, again, we're talking about all those small moral choice points. I would imagine you, Shelby, the people that live in your cul de sac, don't know you because of three big moments.

30:52 They know you because of ten thousand little moments. That's where you are making yourself known and what is valuable to you known. And so, this is passage is a hundred thousand grains of salt that retard corruption and we tend to think of the great big moments, but your influence is really more shaped by all those little moments of life where either you are living with this identity and this meaning and purpose in place or you're not.

31:31 Shelby: Yes, and I think that's really important to remind us of that, to keep our eye on that ball because it's easy for us to think, "Oh, I did this one thing one time," or, "I said this one thing one time," that ended up being the most impactful or the most influential, but it is all the little moments behind the scenes, how I talk to my neighbors, how I treat their kids when they're in my yard or messing up my stuff, how I decide to mow my lawn in in relation to the people next to me.

32:11 Those things are important. It seems unimportant, but it actually is incredibly important because they're maybe not going to remember the one time that I said something that was correct. They're going to remember the other times if my life lived up to the correctness of what I talked about.

32:29 It's kind of scary to think about and that ends up presenting itself as, "Well, I'm not capable of living that life 100% of the time around my neighbors." I messed up one time with my neighbor across the street and, basically, there was some vandalism done to my house and I accused her boyfriend's kids of actually doing it in a subtle way and she was really hurt. She was really, really offended by that and so, I listened to her, and I went to a flower shop and I bought her flowers; and I took it across the street and I apologized for how I behaved.

33:09 And she told me that when I apologized and did that, she said, "My family does not behave this way. When they mess something up or they get something wrong, they just sweep it under the carpet or they go, 'Well, whatever,' and kind of move on. But the fact that you apologized for getting something wrong really is just very different," and it blew her away. And so, I'm saying that not to pat myself on the back, but just to say that we will mess up. We will mess up and how we respond to when we mess up is equally important.

33:41 Paul: So let's talk about that. None of us are going to be salt and perfection. We're just not because there is sin that still lives inside of us and is being progressively eradicated. You can be salt even in moments where you've blown it and as your illustration said, I had this mortifying, mortifying moment.

34:08 My first pastoral position, we were in Scranton, Pennsylvania and we lived in a double house, and our landlord lived right next door to us. And she gave us a very low rent if I would do yard work. And if I didn't do it in what she thought was a timely manner — she was an older woman — she'd get out there and she'd start doing it.

34:28 It drove me nuts and so, I look out the front and she's raking the leaves, this poor old lady. And I say out loud, "If she thinks I'm going to go out and start raking because she's out there, she's nuts." My four-year-old son was standing behind me.

34:52 He went out in front of Dear Mrs. Smertz, puts his hands on his hip and says, "My daddy says if you think he's going to come out and rake because you're raking," and he looked down and says, "You're nuts."

35:12 Shelby: That is mortifying. You totally blew it in front of your son and now, it got over to her as well.

35:20 Paul: So I ran out and I said, "Mrs. Smertz, that thought should have never been in my head. It should have never been in my mouth. It should have never been said before my son. I am so sorry. I'm so sorry."

35:33 Shelby: Yes, how did that go? How did she respond? Do you remember?

35:38 Paul: I think she was so taken aback by the fact that I immediately asked for forgiveness. She didn't know what to say. She always felt like whenever we were nice to her, she had to pay us off, so that afternoon, she brought us a can of something.

35:58 Shelby: Well, there's to your example. Apologizing quickly, asking for forgiveness, that's saltiness. That is saltiness and that could actually be more powerful than getting it right in the first place. I'm not saying that we should mess things up on purpose and then, run to cover our tracks, but asking for forgiveness, admitting that you're wrong, those deaths — and they do feel like deaths, no doubt — I can even feel like going up to this old woman and apologizing for what you said.

36:29 You weren't trying to cover it up, you're apologizing for what you said felt like a little death. But often, I have found in my life — and you could probably speak to this better than I can — is that those moments when we kill our flesh and we feel that death is the moments when our... those are often hand in hand with the Spirit renewing us from the inside out and so, there's life there even though it feels like death, that there's that social kind of like I have to go cover.

37:00 First of all, I shouldn't have said that. Now, I have to go cover for what my son said to her and stepping out onto that porch apologizing felt like a little death, I'm sure, just like me going to the neighbor across the street and handing her flowers and saying, "I accused your step kids of something that I shouldn't have done." It was a little death, but there was life there that sprung out from it. That's saltiness. That's an example of saltiness.

37:27 Paul: Well, that's exactly what Jesus was talking about when He calls for us to die. Die to ourselves, take up our cross, and follow Him. That's what He's talking about. Or Paul in 1 Corinthians 6 says you were bought with a price. You are not your own. My life doesn't belong to me and that's what this passage is saying.

37:48 There's a higher agenda from the One who purchased me as His own that now is meant to shape my living. It's so easy to forget that and to forget that then I'm called to a moral position. So that's what salt is, it's to fight the corruption in this corrupt world corrupted by sin and so, I need to be cognizant of the fact that I am, in fact, making moral choices all the time.

38:30 And the other thing is what an honor that I'm called to be salt of the earth. Why me? I could be part of the corruption. It's a beautiful thing. Okay, let's go to the second one because we have other passages we'd like to look at today.

38:57 ¹⁴You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hidden. ¹⁵Nor do people light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on a stand, and it gives light to all in the house. ¹⁶In the same way, let your light [so] shine before others, so that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven.

39:22 Prepare to be stunned. John announces a name of Jesus. What is it? He's the light of the world that lights everyone coming into the world. That's a messianic title and Jesus gives that title to us.

39:48 Shelby: We take on the mantle.

39:50 Paul: That is just what amazing. It doesn't get any bigger or more important than that. Jesus [said], "No, no, no, I'm not just the light. You are the light of the world." So Jesus [says], "What I came to do, I am conscripting you, drafting you to be part of it." Wow.

40:17 Shelby: Yes, it's a heavy burden, a scary title, mantle of responsibility, which should, to a degree, make us feel that way and then, immediately go back to Jesus and say, "You've got to help me do this because I can't do this on my own. It's a lot of responsibility, and I'm not up to the task." That's so good spot to be in.

40:45 Paul: So imagine a Broadway stage and in lights above the stage are light of the world, and out walks Jesus. The spotlight goes on Him. The music is crescendoing and He walks off the stage, and on the stage walk a hundred people. The light broadens the spotlight, the music swells even more, and the title is still there.

41:24 Shelby: Yes, I love that. It's really, like I said, it's emotional and positive, but also there's an element of fear in that, I think, that there's always this default setting in my heart that I have to be capable of doing it. I have to carry the responsibility and this probably caters just to the way that I'm wired, the way that I process things.

41:51 I'm a doer. I'm a moral person. I was a good kid. I wasn't a disobedient person and so, being that type of personality ends up thinking, when I read stuff like that, I go, "Okay, it's my responsibility to carry this mantle," and to a degree, that's true, yes, but it should bring you back to a position of neediness.

42:18 Also, I like your illustration of having a hundred people walk out on the stage. There's an element of community that happens with light and when you see a city set on a hill to Jesus's illustration, you're seeing multiple buildings with multiple lights in them and it creates more of a spectacle.

42:37 Paul: Yes, and what the word picture I gave there of the Broadway stage depicts is when Jesus leaves the stage, the light of His mission doesn't go out because He says, "You're the light," which is precious and important, but it's really important to, again, realize that God never sends us without going with us and He never calls us to a task without empowering us. It's what God said to Moses again and again.

43:28 Now, think of Moses. He's in exile because he committed murder. He thinks probably that his life is over. He ends up with a wife and children, and thinks that's God's forgiveness and blessing. He has no idea what God is going to call him to and, you know, the burning bush and God begins to speak to him.

43:54 Any rational man being in Moses position would be scared to death to go back to Egypt. He's not being rebellious in that moment. He's being realistic. Moses does not have what it takes to stand in front of Pharaoh and convince that man to let go of his economic engine because those slaves were the economic engine of Egypt.

44:19 He's right and so, God never mocks him. He just says, "Do you know who I am? I'm the I am, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God who has been faithful to His covenant promises. I'm going to go with you." And even when Moses says, "Well, I'm not a very good speaker..."

44:43 Shelby: That's what I was going to get at, yes, yes.

44:45 Paul: He says, "Well, you know, I made your mouth, but I'll send you Aaron." When the Lord guides, He provides and so, we need to remember this. You don't want to look at these passages and say, "I could never do this. It's impossible for me. This is too big of a burden. This is just depressing. I wish I would have never listened to this podcast."

45:14 You may have other reasons for saying that, but God is in you and for you and with you, and even for us now, we have the Holy Spirit living inside of us. Now, that means even when you're in a situation where you have raging emotions, you have the power to say no and turn and go in another direction because, as we've talked about it, God has unzipped you and got inside of you by His Spirit.

45:55 Shelby: Yes, yes, and sometimes, when we go through life and we see success and smooth sailing and things just go well all the time, it can be the worst thing in the world for us. I'm not saying those things are bad, but it can be the worst thing in the world for us because it gets us to a point where we have a tendency to go, "Who is God?"

46:18 You know, it's from Proverbs. We usually look at that and go, "Give me neither poverty nor riches because if I'm successful in a monetary kind of way, I can look at my life and go, "I don't need God. I've got success on my own. I've got power. I've got talent. I've got influence. I don't need God." We probably wouldn't say it that way, but we live that way, functionally.

46:44 Paul: Well, I'm convinced in Psalm 14 and [53], where it talks about the fool who says in his heart, there is no God. I don't think that's talking about philosophical atheism. I think that's talking about God-amnesia, that the foolishness that sin produces is we live godlessly.

47:12 We live as if God doesn't exist. In our heart, God doesn't reign and if that's true, then that psalm wraps arms around all of us, not a certain class of us. I know there are days when I live godlessly. I haven't abandoned my theology, I haven't abandoned my love for the gospel, but I'm living God-forgetfully throughout the day.

47:39 Shelby: Yes, and I think we're all prone to slipping into that kind of mentality depending on our circumstances or depending on our mood or what's been happening in our history over recent days, weeks, months, years, that kind of thing.

47:54 It's always important to remind ourselves to come back to this and to say, "I do need God," and that's a good thing. It's not a bad thing. It's a good thing. Success or if someone goes through hard times and they go, "What God, why are You allowing this to happen to me," and they kind of walk away from Him, then all of us need to be repositioned, refocused to the truth about what the scriptures say about who Jesus is, who we are in light of that, and what we are to do, how we are to behave from that moment forward.

48:25 And that's why we need, not only the scriptures, we need God's people to remind us of that. We need a community of people to remind us that, "Hey, you are salt and light. Don't forget that, whether it be on a small scale in your own eyes or on a big scale. You are salt and light, so represent Him well and go to Him in neediness because humility is, I believe, neediness in action.

48:51 Paul: Four things I try to do every morning and that I encourage people do is gaze upon the glory of the Lord. Go to some passage that reminds me of His glory, His existence. Remember — this is second thing — gaze, remember that God showers that glory down on me by grace.

49:19 Third thing is rest for a moment in that identity that I'm not defined by all my weaknesses and failures. I'm defined by being the object of this glory and then, fourth word is determine to act in light of what I've just remembered and rested in. Gaze, remember, rest, and act.

49:51 Shelby: That's good.

49:52 Paul: And it's just my way of fighting that amnesia that we're talking about.

50:03 Shelby: Yes, because I don't know about you, my tendency in the morning is to not immediately think of those things. I'm guessing that you probably do when you wake up in the morning, but my first thought is how I'm feeling, what needs to be done.

50:15 My brain engages with the tasks of the day, the relationships that I need to wrangle or the kids I need to take care of or whatever. I do have amnesia. Everyday that I wake up, I have that amnesia and so, reminding myself intentionally about who I am and who God is a great way to start the day.

50:38 Paul: Yes, I deal with the same thing. I'm incredibly project-oriented. I know exactly every project I'm supposed to do that day. I know how long they're going to take me. That's just me and so, it's very easy for that to flood into my mind first thing.

50:58 And that's why you have to have habits of remembrance that you establish in your life, so you remember who God is, who you are as His child, the beautiful rest that's yours in that but then, your calling to act in light of that as well. So back to...

51:17 Shelby: Did you want to go more into the light?

51:21 Paul: Oh, absolutely. It doesn't make any sense to be lit and hide it.

51:34 Shelby: This is the basket illustration.

51:35 Paul: Yes. Let's just say, in our current, modern setting, to have a well-lit house with all of the ceiling lights or lamps and never turn them on, and you're just bumping around in darkness. You would think, "Turn the light on," and we have been lit by God's grace. We're now... our hearts are softened. We're morally aware. We've been illumined by scripture. Our consciences have been livened by the ministry of the Holy Spirit. We've been lit, lit, lit.

52:28 Shelby: Which is different thing than what Gen Z says. It's the same words, but different meaning.

52:34 Paul: Yes, yes. It's so important to realize that everywhere I go, I have an opportunity to shine light and to live as the sort of secret order the saints doesn't make any sense at all in terms of the essentiality of this position that Christ has given us here in the Sermon on the Mount.

53:08 So I like that he turns and says, "I mean, come on. Would this make any sense? Why have a lamp that you put a basket over it? Come on." And then, he says, "^16aIn the same way [he's applying now his illustration], let your light shine before others, [and here's where the metaphor gets defined, the illustration gets defined] so that..."

53:41 If you come across anywhere in scripture a "so that" phrase, that's the introduction of a purpose statement. "For the purpose of" is what is being said. ^16bSo that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven.

54:02 So the light shining in darkened culture because the two things this passage is dealing with — salt is corruption, light is darkness. Sin has corrupted our world. Sin has darkened our world. ^16bSo that [men will] see your [this is what light means] good works. He's talking about your living. He's not, first, talking about your words.

54:33 Now, I want to say this lest people misunderstand. At some point, evangelism is going to require words, but that's not what this past is talking about. This is talking about living in such a way that it has redemptive power. That's amazing!

54:57 Well, why do I say redemptive power? ^16bSo that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven. Atheist, agnostic, self-centered people don't give glory to God. If a person comes to the point where they're actually giving glory to God, there's been some kind of heart transaction that has changed them.

55:27 Shelby: Yes, and that's all the way down to the little minute ways about how we behave, to your point of ten thousand little moments where people see... are they going to see the basket over the light or they can actually see the light?

55:43 And I feel like sometimes, we can look at our history and go, "I have just blown it. I have not lived in a way that has shined God's light in and amongst the darkness," but we all know that darkness can be eliminated by even the smallest amount of light — a little match that's lit or a tiny, little flashlight in a dark room or a dark environment — immediately draws the eye to it.

56:16 It's powerful and it might be small, but it's one of those things that's in contrast to the rest of the environment around them and I think that sometimes we go, "I don't have the ability to be a great light that shines for Jesus in a dark world, but it's not talking about the volume of light.

56:35 It's talking about just being a light that's not hidden by a basket, so be out there, be present and while that might be small, it's still light and light has enormous power. You know, there's that illustration of the darker the sky, the brighter the stars, so you're able to see the beauty of the stars if you don't have light pollution around you.

57:02 So if you're out in the middle of a meadow, and you look up at the sky at night and you see the stars, they're going to seem a lot brighter than if you are here in the city in Philadelphia. This world's pretty dark. There's a lot of darkness going on around here.

57:17 Paul: You think?

57:18 Shelby: There is a lot of darkness and so, Jesus has given us the mantle of being the light of the world and whatever that looks like from individual person to individual person, you have the opportunity to shine through your writing, through the work that you do in ministry. Don't compare light to light. Light is light and so, shine in the best way that you can with the responsibility that Jesus has given to you.

57:45 Paul: Yes, and I think that's important to talk about how this operates. I said what seems to be a bold statement that your good works can have redemptive power. You say, "Well, how does that work?" Well, one of the things that Luella and I want to do is live in a way that redefines what a Christian is to people because people have either a media view of Christians that they're just weird and stupid and unwise and ugly or they've had bad experiences of judgmental, condemning Christians. "I think that's all they are, just self-righteous creeps." Or they don't know anything about a Christian.

58:47 We want what we are to be beautiful to them. Not for us, but perhaps that would begin to break down their defenses and begin to open up conversations. Most of the people that are around us know that my take on the normal topics that people are concerned about — sex, money, parenting, midlife, marriage — that my take is a biblical one, so they know we are Bible-believers.

59:25 We want to redefine what that means for them. How do we do that? They're not going to take a Bible course with us, but we can do that by our living, that these are beautiful people. They're loving, they're kind, they're patient, they are into our neediness, so that these impediments to the gospel are being broken down by the way that we live. That's the beginning of the process of redemption. You know, it's maybe I'm just digging the soil, maybe I am just planting the seed, maybe I never get to see it grow.

1:00:08 Shelby: Yes, maybe you're watering.

1:00:09 Paul: Yes, but that's exactly what this passage is talking about, that you have this great company of people whose good works are breaking down people's resistance to the one thing in life they actually need, the gospel of Jesus Christ. I mean, you can imagine on a college campus, if you have this person who's always witnessing, but he's just a jerk everywhere else.

1:00:38 Shelby: Or he's going and drinking in the bars and getting wasted on the weekends. Like, "Isn't that guy part of that ministry that's there?" Yes, you have to live a life that is different, that's separate and the truth is it's like... you know, when I first started ministry, it was in the late 90s, early 2000's and there was this really unspoken emphasis — and I do say unspoken because nobody would ever admit to it, but it was like we got to be cool.

1:01:09 We've got to do something that represents the culture, that we get it, that we're there, that were with them, but we're also Jesus' people and the coolness, the desire to be cool ended up in many sad ways taking over, as opposed to being a representative. And when you're a follower of Jesus, there are some times where it's just not going to be cool.

1:01:38 I tried to live differently. I did try to live differently. I often would volunteer to be a designated driver when I was in college with my non-believing friends who I worked with at the dining hall on campus. I would be invited to their parties. I would go, I wouldn't drink and I would drive them around to wherever they wanted to go at the end of the night.

1:02:01 I have no idea how much of an influence I had on their life then, but they knew where I stood and I was not going to drink. I just decided I was not going to do that, even though legally I could after I was 21. I just decided this is an environment where people are doing something that I'm not going to participate in and that might not make me look cool, but I would rather be different than cool.

1:02:28 Paul: And you never know where that's going to go.

1:02:30 Shelby: Never know and I have no idea how it did.

1:02:33 Paul: In high school, for me, it was known that most of the parties that people would have, I would not want to go to, but there'd be occasion and it was always interesting people. Somebody would come and say, "We're going to party this weekend. I think it'd be one you'd be comfortable coming to."

1:02:50 Shelby: They would say that for you. "We got chips and soda."

1:02:55 Paul: So you don't know what influence those things have in people's lives and that's up to the Lord.

1:03:00 Shelby: It really is and there was a guy I knew when I was on staff at James Madison University working there. There was a guy who had just gotten his third strike for underage drinking and he was at the end of his rope.

1:03:12 He was about to have a hearing where he was going to get kicked off campus because once you get three strikes, you always get kicked out campus and because he was the end his rope, he was like, "I got to do something different."

1:03:23 And he had a couple of friends in CRU and so, he started coming to our large group meeting, enjoying that, not a believer at all. And then afterward, we would invite him to this thing called Jake's Poker Shed, where Jake, a friend of ours, was renting a house.

1:03:36 He had emptied out the lawnmower shed behind his rental and built a card table, like a big eight-sided card table where we would go and play cards, eat pizza, hang out, laugh, and talk; and he started coming to that. This guy named Brandon, he started coming to that.

1:03:54 And all of a sudden, he was like, "This is different. You guys are different. You're not drinking here. You're having a good time. You're enjoying stuff." He's hearing the gospel at the large group meetings. I ended up inviting him to coffee one day afterward and I shared the gospel with him. He ended up becoming a believer, totally transformed his life.

1:04:13 I represented him at this hearing that he was having before the JMU faculty and some fellow students and by God's grace, he didn't get kicked off campus. It totally transformed his life because he saw the way that Christians were living.

1:04:26 They were having a good time. They were enjoying time with one another and they didn't need the crutch for them, at the time, of alcohol in order to have a good time; and he was totally transformed because he the way that Christians were living. He was hearing the gospel, but he was also seeing the way they were living, which was just different than what he was experiencing.

1:04:47 Paul: So let's summarize here from Matthew 5. It's very important to know that if you are God's child, your function in this corrupt and darkened world is essential. You're the salt. You're the light. That's all of us and so, the way that we live not only has moral implications, but it has redemptive implications because if a person flees corruption and runs toward purity, something has happened in their heart.

1:05:31 If a person flees darkness and runs towards light, something is happening in their hearts and we want to be part of that process. We don't know what part we'll be. Maybe I get to be to one who actually has gospel conversation and the person gives their life to Christ, but I may not be. But I must not forget that I'm meant to be salt and I'm mean to be light, and that is expressed in a myriad of moral choices that I make every day.

1:06:07 Shelby: Yes, I think we also have a tendency to believe that when it comes to evangelism, that means I share the gospel with someone and they go from being a non-believer to a believer; and sometimes, that happens and it's amazing. It's beautiful. I've witnessed that happening plenty of times.

1:06:25 But that gospel presentation is no less relevant if you have it with someone who doesn't become a believer at that moment. They don't surrender their life to Christ. Perhaps they move from a position of atheism to questioning and that's a good move. That happens.

1:06:43 God calls me to be a part of that and everybody's on a specific spectrum at certain point in time in their life. You have no idea if you're going to be seed planter, you're going to be a waterer, you are going to be someone who tills the soil or you're actually going to pull the carrot up out of the ground. All of those things are evangelism and God calls you to be part of it. You just have no idea what part you're going to be in.

1:07:04 Paul: Well, the fact of the matter is salvation is always a process and never an event. Even if it seems like an event to you, God has been working, put that person in front of you, there's been a process of redemption taking place.

1:07:18 It's always that way and so, you need to have that kind of process mentality that already, God wrote into my story for me to live in the building that I'm living in, around the people that I am living, across from Reading Terminal Market are those people that I'll see almost daily, the stores and restaurants that I go [to]. All of that is in God's book and not just for my thriving, but for my function as salt and white. So I want to take us to 1 Peter 3, beginning with verse 13 and reading through 17. If you could read that for us, 1 Peter 3:13-17.

1:08:17 Shelby:¹³Now who is there to harm you if you are zealous for what is good? ¹⁴But even if you should suffer for righteousness' sake, you will be blessed. Have no fear of them, nor be troubled, ¹⁵but in your hearts honor Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you; yet do it with gentleness and respect, ¹⁶having a good conscience, so that, when you are slandered, those who revile your good behavior in Christ may be put to shame. ¹⁷For it is better to suffer for doing good, if that should be God's will, than for doing evil.

1:09:01 Again, we can unpack this for days. There's so much here.

1:09:05 Paul: Well, I think it's really helpful and important to understand that the context of this passage is suffering and if you know the history of 1 Peter, it probably wasn't state-sponsored persecution. These are people suffering because of their faith.

1:09:36 They're misunderstood, they're mistreated, reviled, rejected because of the faith. They were the weird people of the way and I would argue that that makes the book of 1 Peter very modern because that's exactly where we are.

1:09:57 We are not in a place where we are facing state-sponsored persecution and it troubles me when people in America compare themselves to people in China who are in prison for their faith. We're not dealing with that right now. We may someday, but not right now!

1:10:22 But Christians are widely, in our culture, mocked, widely misunderstood, widely rejected. In some places there are consequences for your moral stand that may mean a loss of a job or a loss of a promotion. So we're living right where Peter's and so, how do you live in that kind of culture evangelistically where you're not starting at zero, you're starting at -whatever.

1:11:06 There may have been a time in Western culture where Christians were largely respected. That's not our culture right now and it is shocking to me as you watch all of social media, all of broadcast television, all of the streaming services that there's almost no religiosity, no Christianity and if there's ever a Christian, the portrayal is not accurate or complimentary.

1:11:51 And in fact, there are times when I'm watching something, I watch a series, I'm thinking it's so weird to have a series as if religion doesn't exist. These writers drive by churches. All of them would know what a pastor is.

1:12:18 They're writing a whole sector of the human existence out of their series. It's just weird. That's how much antipathy there is toward spirituality, religion, Christianity and so, when I think about it, I think, "Woah, Peter's addressing my life." He's addressing where we live.

1:12:55 And so, he says, "¹³Now who is there to harm you if you are zealous for what is good? ¹⁴But even if you should suffer for righteousness' sake, you will be blessed. Have no fear of them, nor be troubled." In other words, live with the higher order in mind. No one who mistreats you is on the throne and has control of your destiny. No one, because God is on the throne and He has control of your destiny.

1:13:40 Shelby: Yes, why do you think... we talked about reminding ourselves of the truth every morning to keep ourselves pointing in true north of what we need to do. Why do think that there's this tendency to not believe what we see here and to be swept up into the stream of culture so easily?

1:14:05 Is it just because human beings want to fit in? Is it just because we want to be accepted and loved or is it more complicated than that? What have you found to be true when it comes to, "You know, I have fear of other people. I am troubled. I don't want to suffer for righteousness' sake." There's that bend inside of us to want to do the opposite of what this is saying.

1:14:28 Paul: Well, I think there's two spiritual dynamics that are operating here. The first is, by God's creational wisdom, we are made to be social beings. When Genesis says it's not good for man to live alone, that's not Adam saying, "I'm lonely."

1:14:56 That's not what was operating. There's no evidence in the history that Adam was lonely. That was God saying, "This is not who I designed this person to be. I designed his person to live in community. The theological term is that's ontological. That's built, hardwired into our beingness. We are social beings. You can't ever deny your social nature because that's wired into you. So that's the first thing.

1:15:34 Well, that's good and bad news. That's good news in a perfect world. It can become bad news when sin enters the world and we'll do anything to get acceptance. We'll compromise moral convictions. We will step over boundaries that we shouldn't step over in order be accepted, so it's how sin makes good things bad things and creates war for us because we've got to battle against that draw to be part of community.

1:16:12 Now, it's wonderful that part of redemption is to welcome us to a new community, the community of faith and the intimacy and the interconnection of that community is powerfully predicted in scripture. So that's the first thing. It's that social being.

1:16:36 The second thing is a little bit darker. It's what the Apostle Paul says in 1 Corinthians 5:15 that Jesus came so those who live would no longer live for ourselves. Sin makes us selfish in the truest sense of the word. My wants, my needs, my feelings and so, it's not that I don't want to suffer. I don't want anything that I don't want in my life.

1:17:07 I don't want the candy machine not to have the candy that I like. I don't ever want to have no said to me. Well, that selfishness then makes suffering intolerable to us. You know, there's illustrations where you'll have somebody being beaten up on the street and there are witnesses that just stand there.

1:17:39 Why do they stand there? Because they love themselves more than anything else in life and they would rather that person die than for them to be injured in the process of saving that person, so I have those two things operating in me.

1:17:57 I have a hunger for community. That's who I am, but it gets twisted by sin and I have this selfishness because the DNA of sin is selfishness — my wants, my needs, my feelings. Well, those things are going to operate until I'm on the other side and so, you look at this passage and you think, "Well, I don't want to go through that." Well, you don't have a vote. You will go through that. You can't be a Christian in this world that we already defined as being corrupt and dark and not be misunderstood. Of course, you will.

1:18:43 Shelby: Yes, and I think that we shouldn't be surprised by that. We should expect those things. We should be thinking this is not going to go well. Not that we want to have a total pessimistic view of life all the time, but at the same time when we take a stand for something like Jesus in a world that is dark and corrupt, it's not going to be music to everybody's ears. It's going to the aroma of death, the stench of death to people and sometimes, it's going to be the aroma of life.

1:19:14 Paul: Yes, during summers in college, I worked at a factory, so I've talked about, and my name there was not Paul. My name was Bishop and that wasn't a compliment. That was a pejorative.

1:19:32 Shelby: Yes, yes, yes. They were talking down to you.

1:19:33 Paul: You are some weird Christian, you're going to a Bible college, a [inaudible] ministry. Who are you? And bishop spread and that's what I got called.

1:19:48 Shelby: Yes, but my bet is sometimes, when life gets difficult, when stuff hits the fan, they would rather go, "I'd rather talk to Bishop than to my drinking buddies."

1:20:05 Paul: Yes, I would imagine that's the case and that really leads where this passage is going. Look at what happens next. ^15aBut in your hearts honor Christ the Lord as holy. What do you think that means? To honor Christ as holy?

1:20:25 Shelby: Live differently to have your life be an example of the fact that Jesus is better than anything else we can experience and we're called to live morally upright lives because it's a reflection of who He is. If He lives in us, that's what the call is.

1:20:42 Paul: So if something is holy, it means it's the most important, the most valuable, the most prized... Luella has always, when our kids were home, she was always the fire marshal in our house and she would always want us to practice if there was a fire.

1:21:09 Shelby: Really? She would do that?

1:21:10 Paul: Yes, have a fire drill and so, we're sitting at the table and she wanted to talk about this and she want to use me as an example, thinking that I would be a good example to my children. She said, "Paul, if we had a fire in our house, what would be the first thing you'd do?

1:21:30 Shelby: There's the test.

1:21:31 Paul: And I said I would grab my guitar and get it out of the house.

1:21:36 Shelby: You did? Wrong answer.

1:21:40 Paul: And I have this beautiful nine-string handmade guitar. Well, that meant I was honoring that guitar as holy in my heart.

1:21:55 Shelby: Yes, instead of, for example, your children and your wife.

1:21:56 Paul: And Luella said, "You would what?"

1:22:01 Shelby: Rightfully so.

1:22:02 Paul: And one of my kids said, I forget which one said, "Gee, thanks, Dad. We're still in the house." But that's an illustration of something of what's holy in your heart. That was an immediate, again, mortifying response of me. Well, that guitar with all of its value shouldn't I have that place in my heart and unless Jesus is honored as holy in your heart, you will not do what we're talking about right now.

1:22:36 Shelby: Yes, and it's important to understand heart because you and I have talked about this a lot. Everything flows from the heart. Everything comes from the heart, so it's not saying here, but in your words, honor Christ, the Lord is holy. In your heart, honor the Lord as holy because when you're honoring Him in your heart, naturally your words will happen.

1:22:57 Paul: So, if you take all the 900 passages of scripture that mention the heart and you would summarize them in a phrase, the heart is the causal core of your personhood, being the seat of your thoughts, your emotions, and your will.

1:23:18 The heart is the directional system. The heart is a steering wheel. Your words and actions only ever go where your heart has already gone, so that's what he's talking about here. So then he says, "^15bAlways being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you; yet do it with gentleness and respect."

1:23:45 Now, there are so many things here. What I want to talk about first is "anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you". Now, that's interesting. It's the person needing evangelism chasing the evangelist.

1:24:09 That's a switch and they're doing that because they've seen something in you in the middle of what? Suffering. That suffering hasn't diminished your hope, that you have hope and joy and life even in the middle of things that would make people complain and be angry and curse. It's beautiful.

1:24:39 I want to be that person, and I want people to look at me and say, "What has this guy got? I want what he has." I remember a sermon that I heard where my response was an insight. Where is this Jesus? I want to follow him. That's what he's talking about.

1:25:09 Whatever this guy has, I want what this guy has. Now, that's not about you, but that's about something inside of you that has been so bright and so salty, this person says, "I want that," and they come to you. How beautiful is that?

1:25:27 Shelby: How beautiful and wouldn't we all wish for those evangelistic opportunities? And the truth is we can get those evangelistic opportunities if we live salty and full of light because people will chase us eventually.

1:25:40 And that doesn't mean that we don't use our words, like you said, we do talk to people and I'm always in awe of people who move out into the world and just talk to people about Jesus, whether that be at a table at a restaurant or walking up to someone on a boardwalk or someone in an environment, at a park and just engaging in evangelistic conversation.

1:26:04 I'm always really, really impressed by that kind of stuff, but a lot of times, it really is just living as salt, living as light and that will naturally attract people to come to you, to want to talk to you and have conversations about what is different about you, what is unique about you because, "I don't have what you have and I want it bad."

1:26:27 So that's on us to a degree to live those ten thousand little moments where people are seeing the difference in us, but at the same time, being prepared for when that time actually happens, you going to be set to actually engage in that conversation then. It is time to engage your words.

1:26:47 Paul: In California, we live next to an actress. She and her husband were quite well-known. She's in her mid-50s. He forsook her for somebody younger and she's been left destitute. She has two daughters. It's just a horrible thing and we just tried to love her.

1:27:23 She had nothing for Thanksgiving, so we provided a Thanksgiving meal for her. At Christmas, we booked something very special for she and her daughters, and we'd pray for her and talk to her about praying for her.

1:27:44 And she said, "I've never met anybody like you guys. You have no reason for doing this." And that's given us more opportunity with her and Luella's in contact with her, even the last few days, even though we're here. And we don't know how close she is to God's kingdom, but she is really intrigued and it hasn't been hardline evangelism.

1:28:19 It's been "love your neighbor" and we've sought to do that. Our hearts were immediately touched by her plight and thought, "What would it be like for us? You're on the top of the world and then all of a sudden, you're just destitute," and we've just tried to demonstrate the love of Jesus to her.

1:28:50 Now, there's a second part to this that I think is really important and I'm not sure we think about this as well. If you're living in a way that people are going to come to you and say, "I want what that guy has," you better be prepared to talk about what you have and so, that's where you get into word evangelism.

1:29:26 You've got to be prepared to talk about the person and work of the Lord Jesus Christ, the nature of sin, and the offer of mercy and grace. And I wonder how many who call themselves believers are prepared to have an understandable conversation like what I just described.

1:29:55 Shelby: Yes, probably not a lot.

1:29:58 Paul: Because it doesn't end with lifestyle. Peter makes that very clear. Give a defense. It doesn't mean negative, a reason for the hope that is in you. I need to be ready because if I'm being salt and light, if I am living with hope and joy and love, even under misunderstanding, I'm going to get opportunities. How sad is it if you get opportunities you don't recognize that you have opportunities and you aren't prepared for them?

1:30:45 Shelby: We talk about what we love. Human beings do and so, if people who follow Jesus claim to love Jesus, you get to know Jesus. You go deeper into your relationship with Him and when you get know Jesus and you spend time in the word and you spent time in prayer and you surround yourself with fellow people who love Jesus, you're going to naturally talk about Him with other people.

1:31:10 And so, when people come to you and they say, "What's different about you," if you're not prepared to talk about what you love in those moments, I would argue maybe that your love isn't great enough. I would probably say that you need to go deeper into your understanding of the gospel, not just intellectually, but here in your heart.

1:31:32 You can get me to talk about the Phillies. You would've talked about a good meal. You can get me to talk about this book that I've read that I think is really incredible or this show that I've watched or this movie that I saw.

1:31:50 It's easy for me to about those things because I already have a pre-existing love for those things, so if you started asking me about it, it would be easy for to talk it. Why? Because I've done the prep work. Not because I felt like I had to study for a test, but because I was responding out of love to the thing that I enjoy and so, when you ask me questions about it, it doesn't feel like homework.

1:32:14 It doesn't feel like a test, so I think there's a little bit of a misunderstanding, misinterpretation of "be prepared". Do we want to know apologetics? Sure. It's good to have a defense of the faith. All of those things are really important when we're talking about them.

1:32:29 We should have answers, but some of us feel so intimidated because we're afraid we're going to be asked a question that we have no idea how to respond and we can't defend it well, but I can talk about what I love and apologetics is a good thing and we should be defending the faith, but if you're a person who doesn't think that way or God has not wired you in a way to have a good argument or debate well or to have all this knowledge to be able to regurgitate it so that people understand it, that's okay.

1:33:02 Just talk about what you love. Talk about who you love and when you talk about who you love, that is being prepared in one form or fashion. So I think being prepared might look differently to different people based on the way that God has wired you.

1:33:18 Paul: Yes, I think that's true. I do think, though, that it would really help people to just have in their mind just a simple presentation of the gospel. You don't have to be a PhD theologian. The message of the gospel is simple, but the pattern of Peter is live in a way that gives you opportunities. When you get the opportunities, just be ready. That's the pattern.

1:33:59 Shelby: Yes. Can you say that again?

1:34:03 Paul: Well, live in a way that gives your opportunities. When you give opportunities, be prepared. Be ready and you want to give attention to both those. Am I living in a way that give me opportunities? When I get the opportunities, am I prepared? We've got to speak it to this. Don't be an embarrassed Christian because you can blow off opportunities. You can say, "Well, I'm just from a good family."

1:34:32 Shelby: Yes, yes, and evangelism is not "be nice". It can't just end there.

1:34:37 Paul: And that's being given opportunity and you're timid or afraid and so, you won't step into the opportunity that God has given you. Be prepared and know that at that point, you're not asking for that person's acceptance. You're hoping that you will be a tool of their surrender to Jesus.

1:35:08 Shelby: Yes, and that's one of the things that I think Cru does really well, as I've worked for Cru for over 25 years now. We train people on how to communicate the simplicity of the gospel. That's one the things we're known for and it looks like different tools and methods to be able to do that.

1:35:27 We've developed a number of resources over the years since Dr. Bright and his wife, Vonette, started Cru back in 1951. There [are] tracks, like the "Unsatisfied" booklet that you have written. That's a way, it's an opportunity to be able to communicate the gospel in a specific way. It's a tool.

1:35:46 There are other ways that you can do it as well and sometimes people feel like, "I have to have a tool in order to be to do this," and if that's the case, we can provide those kind[s] of tools. There's lots of opportunities out there.

1:35:57 You can even Google how to share the gospel of Jesus and probably find a number of ways to do that. The point is be ready. Actually be ready when it happens and so, there's a sense of urgency there that needs to be present in the life of a believer because if you sit down somewhere in a park and someone starts talking to you about something, if you're on a plane and someone asks you what you believe about certain things, you should be ready to be able to talk about what it means to have a personal relationship with God through the person of Jesus Christ. You should be ready. Every Christian should be ready.

1:36:31 Paul: Yes, so we've laid out two of the three steps in Peter here. Opportunity, preparedness. The third step is reinforcement. So with gentleness and respect, I am reinforcing that they've read me right, that I do have something worth giving because I don't treat you like a loser, I'm not religiously arrogant, I am not putting you down. I'm doing this with gentleness and respect. That person is worthy of respect solely because they're made in the image of God.

1:37:21 Shelby: Yes. This is a problem in our culture. I don't know if you've picked up on it lately.

1:37:24 Paul: You think? You think?

1:37:28 Shelby: Yes, this is a huge problem.

1:37:30 Paul: And so, I like that opportunity, preparedness, reinforcement. You can actually get the opportunity, have the right message, you prepare the right message, but your attitude is so despicable, it breaks down the whole process.

1:37:49 Shelby: Yes, that's a really good word because if you say the "right thing" in the wrong way or with a wrong heart, you're actually saying something that's louder than the right thing that you've communicated.

1:38:02 Paul: So it's like someone saying to me, "Okay, Dr. Tripp." Now, they're using terms of respect, but they're doing it in such a disrespectful way, I have no thought that they respect me.

1:38:18 Shelby: Yes, sorry I talked to you that way. Just kidding.

1:38:22 Paul: The words "Dr. Tripp" have never come out of your lips.

1:38:25 Shelby: They have not, actually, now that you said that. I don't know if I've ever called you doctor. I can start if you want though.

1:38:32 Paul: No, that's fine. When people say "Dr. Tripp", I turn around. Is there somebody behind me?

1:38:38 Shelby: But I get your point.

1:38:39 Paul: I just think that when you've been given an opportunity and you're now sharing the gospel with somebody, that's just a holy moment given to you by a sovereign God who has marched two people into that moment and the wise heavenly Evangelist is working on both people at that moment; and in that holy moment, I don't want to be in the way of what God's doing. How horrible would that be to be in the way to what God is seeking to accomplish in that beautiful moment.

1:39:28 Shelby: Yes, gentleness and respect is something that we should underline in our Bibles, and I think it's noteworthy... I think it might be a little bit easier sometimes — I don't know, this is for me — to treat people with gentleness and respect if I'm looking them in the eye, if I am having a face-to-face conversation.

1:39:48 But I think this is really important to remember as we're thinking about the world that we live in that's digital and how social media plays such a strong role in of our lives. Gentleness and respect [don't] end when you pick up your phone or when you get behind your laptop or an iPad and start to communicate to the world.

1:40:09 Gentleness and respect is 100% applicable in those moments as well because everybody who reads what you write, what you post or sees a picture that you post, every click, every view, every comment, that's a person.

1:40:28 I mean, there are bots out there, but if you're interacting with someone, that's a human being, also to your point, made in the image of God and if you are not treating that person with gentleness and respect, you are not prepared to actually share the gospel.

1:40:44 So it's really important to remember that gentleness and respect [don’t] end when you pick up your phone and start to post on social media. If anything, it begins there because you're having a more powerful influence because more eyeballs are actually on the things that you post. Really important to remember.

1:41:02 Paul: So I want to add one more step to 1 Peter. Opportunity, because of the nature of your living. Preparedness, reinforcement. This is the fourth word: aftermath. So what's the aftermath? Having a good conscience.

1:41:23 So what's the aftermath? Self-examination. Can I walk away from this moment with a good conscience? That is so important. Self-examination is just really a good thing and I think we're afraid to do that, but we shouldn't because there's nothing that could ever be exposed or known about me that hasn't been covered by the blood of Jesus.

1:41:53 I should not be afraid and also, we now have the convicting ministry of the Holy Spirit. If my conscience bothers me, that's a good thing. That's not God condemning me. He's wrapping arms of love around me and drawing me near and I should not resist that, so the aftermath is important.

1:42:21 You know, it's not just walking away and saying, "How did I do?" It's walking away saying, "How did I serve my Lord? Was I part of what He's doing or in the way of it?" I will confess that there were many times when God, in His love for my children, revealed a need in their life, but it was a time when I didn't want to deal with it or I was angry that I had to deal it again and I was in the way of what He was doing rather than part of it. And in the aftermath, I had a guilty conscience. Respond to that. How is your conscience afterwards? That's the aftermath.

1:43:10 Shelby: Yes, that's a really great observation of what's happening here in this piece of scripture. Having a good conscience is always... yes, again, you can be right, and you can be right and the way that you say things can be totally wrong.

1:43:29 And I'd argue that in the culture we are living in today, if you say something right, but you do it in a wrong way, you've actually said something wrong because the stuff that you say, how you say the things that you say often overshadows the content of what you're communicating.

1:43:49 Paul: You have never ever in your entire life had someone angrily mock you or scream in your face so close that you can feel their breath and you would have never walked away saying, "That was so good. I feel so helped. I would love to have that person do that again."

1:44:10 They may have said things that you need to hear, but you walk away. The manner is so harsh that that's all you walk away with and you don't feel helped, you don't feel loved, you don't feel understood.

1:44:28 Shelby: So how you serve what you say is so important. If I brought the greatest meal to you ever — a steak, potatoes, vegetables — that you love the most, cooked in the absolute perfect way, but I served it to you on a trash can lid, you're not going to want to eat the meal. How you deliver it is important.

1:44:48 Paul: Or more aggressively, slammed it in my face.

1:44:53 Shelby: Yes, with the trash can lid. But how you deliver something, it could be a beautiful, correct presentation of the gospel because you've got everything theologically right, but if you're serving it on the trash can lid of a lack of gentleness, no respect, sarcasm, talking down to someone, they're not going to want to eat the meal that you present. It's really important to understand that.

1:45:23 Paul: So live in a way that gives you opportunities, that salt and light. Be prepared to share with people who you are and why you are who you are. Reinforce that with godly character in the midst of that conversation and then afterwards, be willing to look at yourself and say, "Can I walk away with a good conscience from this interaction?"

1:45:53 Shelby: Yes, that's a good kind of rubric to look through. Just to figure out what is Peter actually saying here and how is this applicable to the way I talk, the way I act, and how I am intentional when I communicate the gospel?

1:46:08 Paul: And it's being placed in the middle of a culture that's just like ours. Well, there's a couple of other passages I thought of us talking about, but it would take too much time for us to do that. I want to mention them.

1:46:25 One is John 13[:35] where Jesus says, "By this shall all men know you are My disciples by your love for one another." It's not just me as an individual on camera; it is the whole Christian community on camera.

1:46:40 Shelby: Yes, that's really good.

1:46:41 Paul: That we would be known for our love. Again, if I could quote Francis Schaeffer because his writing was formative for me as I grew up as a Christian, he called this the mark of discipleship. It's not theological knowledge, it's love.

1:47:01 Shelby: It's love, yes.

1:47:02 Paul: And then, even more astounding, in John 17, Jesus' final prayer for, not only the disciples, but those who would follow, He prayed that "11bthey may be one as We are one" and then, He says, "23bThat the world may know that You sent Me." So the final argument for the truthfulness of the person and work of Jesus is the unity of the church. Isn't that amazing?

1:47:38 Shelby: Yes, amazing and also scary. Yes, very scary, especially, in light of where we're at right now in our culture because the church culture is not one that would be characterized as unified.

1:47:49 Paul: So what's important about those two passages is to remember that the essentiality of the position we have as salt and light is not just individual, it's corporate and even Jesus talked about a city on a hill. That's many lights. I want to end with a passage from Daniel. I love this passage when people are writing or speaking on evangelism, Daniel's not the first book they go to.

1:48:27 Shelby: Usually not, no.

1:48:29 Paul: But this is Daniel 12 and it's a good way to close down our conversation. Talks about God's people and he says, "³And those who are wise shall shine like the brightness of the sky above; and those who turn many to righteousness, like the stars forever and ever.” Isn't that beautiful?

1:49:02 Shelby: Yes, really poetic.

1:49:03 Paul: It just makes me weep. This is Daniel 12:3. ³And those who are wise shall shine like the brightness of the sky above; and those who turn many to righteousness, like the stars forever and ever. May that be who we are. May we be living with that beautiful, gentle, patient, humble wisdom that James talks about, the wisdom that's peaceable and pure and humble, so that we are like the brightness of the sky. You know, you can't miss it and then, may our way of living, turn many toward righteousness. May that be. Jesus, may it be.

1:50:13 Shelby: Yes, because of the combination of boldness and humility, those two things together.

1:50:17 Paul: Imagine standing up in eternity and all of a sudden, a company of people stand behind you and you say to the Lord, "Who are these people," and they say, "Those are ones who have turned toward righteousness because of you."

1:50:41 Shelby: Nothing better than that.

1:50:43 Paul: Now, that's worth living for. And we get caught up on so many things, that my sandwich wasn't as hot as I wanted it to be and, you know, I had to wait in a long line and traffic drives me crazy and, you know, all that. People on the street are rude to me and all that stuff that just doesn't make any difference; and I want to have Daniel 12:3.

1:51:12 This is one of these passages that you ought to write down on a piece of paper or a card and put it on the mirror that you look at it in the morning just to remind you. Let me read it again. ³And those who are wise shall shine like the brightness of the sky above; and those who turn many to righteousness, like the stars forever and ever.

1:51:37 Shelby: May that be true.

1:51:38 Paul: Amen. God help us.